Activism Discussion: Jews And Christianity

Jews And Christianity
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Topaz
2007-03-26 20:41:08 EST
by Edgar J. Steele
"...and I'm glad we killed him!" Thus went one of the more virulent
of my recent hate mailers, who went on to proclaim the racial
superiority of his being Jewish. He never said what, in particular,
set him off, or if, in fact, it was anything I ever had written. His
intent seemed merely to stun and outrage me. He failed.
A great many other Jewish haters have echoed this fellow's
vitriol-laced message by threatening to kill me, my wife and our
children. (this particularly arrogant Jew actually identified
himself - he is Mark Wiles, Nevada-based thug for the Jewish Defense
League).
Call it Internet graffiti. I've gotten used to it. However, I invite
you to be outraged. In fact, I encourage you to be outraged. But,
don't even pretend to be amazed at the brazen and incredibly hostile
behavior of the Jews behind it all. You have known about it all along
and you have known full well that it is no coincidence that the perps
are Jewish. You know that is the very reason for their behavior. You
have pretended not to notice. Well, I am not inclined to allow you
this little self deception any longer.
It is the general lack of outrage on the part of most Americans in the
face of the Jewish campaign against Western civilization in general
and Christianity, specifically, that I find amazing.
This is Not a Religious Issue
Now, don't confuse this ranting of mine today with anything resembling
a religious diatribe. Or me with a rapture bunny. Why, I don't even
go to church - but, then, I doubt that Christ would attend, either,
given the state of modern religion (a discussion for another day).
If you are not religious or if you actually dare to admit you are not
a Christian, the Jewish assault upon Christianity still is your fight,
because Christianity merely is the symbol. You, gentle reader, are
the target. You know it is true, too. Admit it.
Do not stand idly by and allow others like myself to carry our
standard into battle alone, simply because you pretend not to be at
war. You may not be interested in this particular war, but rest
assured that this war irretrievably is interested in you.
It may be that I will be among the second or the third wave of
casualties (the first wave already has been taken down and killed or
imprisoned), but that does not mean that you will escape the
onslaught. On the contrary - rest assured that, should you allow the
battle line to reach your ranks before bothering to pitch in and help,
then you will be praying to God to save you, regardless of your
particular religious leaning today.
That's Mr. Anti-Semite to You!
Do not mistake all the Jewish hatred being spewed in every direction
these days for justifiable responses to anti-Semitism (whatever that
means, since the very term presumes no provocation). The threats to
which you just listened, above, were delivered to my wife, my little
children and myself before I ever said one word, aloud or in print,
that could even have been mistaken for being anti-Semitic!
Both the ADL and the SPLC claim that, only in recent years have I
"disclosed" my inherent anti-Semitism. What they refuse to consider,
as always is the case with Jews accusing others of being anti-Semites,
is the fact that they made me into what you see today. Unlike so many
others today, I offer no apology. They should be apologizing to me.
To all comers, I say, "That's Mr. Anti-Semite to you!"
"We killed Jesus and We're Proud of It"
You think the email I mentioned above is just one nut case venting?
You may be right about the nut-case part, but his attitude is far more
prevalent and hostile than most possibly could imagine. Visit this
web site and click on the picture for an unsettling video of an
Israeli threatening Palestinian Christians in their own home, telling
them, "We killed Jesus and we're proud of it."
This increasingly-open assault upon the sanctity of Christianity has
nothing to do with religion. If, like most, you are not a
participating member of organized - dare I say "institutionalized?" -
Christianity in America (or elsewhere, for that matter), this still
affects you. You can be an atheist, yet still you should be outraged!
Why? Because Christianity so firmly is embedded in our racial
background, that's why.
Christianity is an inextricable part of our heritage - of all that
makes us who and what we are. Not the religious stuff, whatever that
means, but the ethos ... the lifestyle ... the principles and creed by
which we conduct ourselves and treat others.
Take it Personally
Take it personally, in other words. Believe me, those who send me
such sentiments as I have today recounted take personally anything
they decide is anti-Semitic and their response is anything but
religious in nature or intent.
This is a racial war and, like it or not, you are a participant. The
quote that I paraphrased above,"You may not be interested in war, but
war is interested in you," is an aphorism generally attributed to Leon
Trotsky, Russian adherent of Karl Marx and a prime architect of
conditions leading to the mass execution of upwards of 80 million
White Christians in Russia last century. It is not at all ironic that
Trotsky (born Lev Bronstein), like virtually all of his fellow
Communist travelers, was Jewish.
My experience isn't unique, nor is it confined to those of us who dare
to use the "J" word in the context of what is wrong with the world
today.
All who dare suggest a racial basis for the avarice and aggression
now carrying America over the edge and into the maw of the coming
world conflagration and, what's more, who dare identify that race as
Jewish, have grown accustomed to my low-browed correspondent's sort of
harsh rhetoric.
The Cut that Hurts
Here's what hurts: Getting similar hostility from my own countrymen
of European extraction. No, not specifically comments like today's
about Christianity, though that occasionally does issue forth from our
side of the fence. It's the hostility and anger, even the
marginalization and indifference concerning any sort of warning or
complaint that links danger to Jews, generally. No good deed goes
unpunished.
Notice that I do not resort to the common cop-out of most who venture
into these waters and merely bemoan "Zionists." That is the
politically-correct way of being politically incorrect these days.
Yes, it is the racially-supremacist, "me first, you dead" outlook of
the Zionist that I find particularly offensive, but that outlook, in
itself, is racially based. How could it be otherwise? Think about
that for a moment, because the logically-inescapable racial basis of
Semitism and anti-Semitism generally goes unrecognized.
When is a Jew not a Jew?
And, yes, I know all about Khazaria and true Semites and the results
of the Roman diaspora (dispersion of a people formerly concentrated in
one place) of Biblical Jews. You and I both know what I mean when I
say "Jew," so don't get distracted with irrelevant, albeit true,
history.
Consider the following proposition very carefully - no, seriously, get
ready to do some slow, clear thinking right about ... here: How could
it be possible for racial antipathy to be based upon anything but
race, both coming and going?
Stop right there! I saw that. Go read that last paragraph again,
even twice.
Is It Racial, Religious or Something Else?
No, we aren't all the same under the skin just because we all bleed
red. Frogs and bugs bleed red, too. This isn't the place to develop
the genetic origins of modern cultural bias and limitation. I have
developed that concept extensively elsewhere, in my book, Defensive
Racism, which I commend to your attention.
You might be one who has looked down your nose and dismissed my "sort"
as racist or, worse, anti-Semitic. In fact, I'd be surprised if you
didn't have some degree of that attitude present in your thinking at
this very moment, as you read these very words. Fair enough ...
please just read on, though. Having acknowledged your thought, don't
you think that, in fairness, I deserve a hearing? I'll be brief.
I called this a racial war. Even the most casual observer now must
acknowledge that what is taking place in the Middle East is a war
fought for Israel and against Muslims. The oil simply is a cynical
excuse. We could have bought every last drop of Arab oil, and for
much less than we are paying for this insanity.
Here's what all our targets have in common: they are the Muslim
enemies of Israel. Muslim, not just Arab. Our next target, the
Iranians, predominantly are Aryan, not Arab, even if mostly Muslim.
Iran ... Aryan. That is no coincidence. One derives directly from
the other. Look it up for yourself.
What you see in the Middle East today is a war between Judaism and
Islam, simply put. Oddly enough, however, it is not a religious war,
but a racial war.
America - Just Another Jewish Nation ... Or Is It?
That's why the Arabs that Americans fight every day refer to Americans
as "Jews," a fact you don't see or hear reported by our by our
controlled media.
Even more oddly, Islam is much closer to Christianity than is Judaism,
the latter of which is nothing more than secular humanism, or self
worship, in the final analysis. Muslims revere Jesus Christ and
acknowledge His special place. Muslims regard their own Mohammed as
only a prophet, though held in very high regard. Again, go look it up
for yourself. You won't believe me, otherwise.
That business flying around the Internet about the Koran being a book
of exclusion and a manual for aggression? About Islam's objective
being the killing of all infidels, with all infidels being
non-Muslims? About Islam being so unforgiving as to require the
mutilation of children for stealing bread? Pure propaganda, false in
every regard, designed to whip up Western support for the racial war
being waged against the followers of Islam.
Jews vs. Everybody Else
A different sort of war is being waged throughout Western
civilization, with countries like Germany, Austria, Britain and Canada
farther along and actually imprisoning those who speak just as I do
today. That is why I dare not visit those countries, even if I never
said a word while within their borders. It, too, is a racial war,
being fought in the classic Jewish way: Brother against brother,
while Jews stand by, wailing loudly about their victimhood, all the
while supplying both sides. This peculiar war ultimately pits Judaism
against Christianity. Again, however, it is not really religious, but
racial. Christianity solidly is in the heritage of Europeans and
European-Americans. Religion is the excuse. Race is the target.
We Love Jesus ... Not!
Just as always, they have us fighting each other, with even America's
Christians now participating in the demise of Christianity. Consider
the abject, written apology offered recently by a Virginia Beach
Catholic school principal because some of his students chanted "We
love Jesus" during a basketball game with a rival Jewish school. Last
I heard, the moron had enrolled all those kids in mandatory
sensitivity training.
Follow the URL in the previous sentence and note well that it is not
reported just what the Jewish students had been chanting. Does it
matter, though? Think about it for a moment. If you are a Christian,
how could you possibly consider any context in which saying "We love
Jesus" requires an apology? Didn't Christians endure death in the
Roman Coliseum for their faith? Isn't this precisely the manner in
which Judas thrice denied Christ? Would somebody out there who knows
the guy please point this out to that school principal for me?
What Does It Mean to be a Christian
Now, I am not particularly religious, I confess, but I am deeply
spiritual. What's more, I do my best to lead my life in accordance
with the very principles enunciated by Jesus Christ. Yes, I know that
true believers need more: they demand that one utter the magic
incantation, "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior,"
or words to that effect. What on earth does that mean? No, it is a
rhetorical question, so please don't send me endless religious tracts,
but please do think about it.
What would Jesus say about one who acts in accordance with His
teachings versus another who merely pays Him lip service? You know
the answer, of course. Some of the finest Christians I know never go
to church. Some of the most clearly un-Christian hypocrites out there
are knee down in pews every Sunday and walk around with Bibles in
their hands at all times. You know who you are.
Christianity is a way of living, not talking ... action, not posture
... being, not pretending. As I said, this is about culture, about
race and heritage, not religion. It is about what we are and the way
we are at our very core. Our very existence is a constant reminder to
others of what they are not. It may not matter to you, but it
certainly does to Jews, regardless of what you might think.
Are We What We Do, or What We Say?
Here's the punch line: Christian countries do not bomb third-world
countries like Iraq and Afghanistan back into the stone age. Jewish
countries do, though. Just ask any Palestinian.
It was no coincidence that those Lebanese ambulances targeted by
Israeli jets during its recent genocidal campaign against the civilian
population of southern Lebanon (principally Christian Lebanese, by the
way) were holed directly in the center of the red crosses on their
roofs. (Ambulances...carrying injured children, of all things.)
Nor is it coincidental that the international Red Cross now has
agreed, at Israel's insistence, to replace its traditional symbolic
cross with ... well, I'm not sure what to call the symbol on this flag
held by a Red Cross official, nor am I sure that the organization even
will continue to call itself the Red Cross. I am ashamed to admit
that, in the past, I have contributed to this shameless, so-called
charity with its grotesquely overpaid executives. Never again,
however, and don't you do it, either!
Yes, of course the Israeli Jews intentionally blew up those ambulances
with pinpoint guided rockets simply because of the presence of the
crosses on the roofs. Yes, it is far more than coincidence that the
penetration was directly in the center of the cross. Don't be naive.
Do You Believe in Coincidence?
Nor is it coincidence that the nonstop legal assault upon Christianity
in America is being brought by Jewish plaintiffs, through Jewish
lawyers, heard by Jewish judges. It is America's European culture
they are after eradicating, of course, which means our elimination
altogether. It's racial, not religious. Stop and think! Why are the
borders of every Western civilized nation being held wide open to the
third world, after all, quite aside from the profit motive inherent to
killing all American industry by moving it overseas?
I've said it before: America has become Jewish. By culture. It has
crept into our outlook and our attitudes, dispensed largely through
the major institutions firmly in Jewish control: media, entertainment
and government. Of course, American industry also is largely Jewish
controlled, but that, too, simply is another expression of how Jewish
we have become. Think not? Just look at the corporate scavengers
carving up the spoils in the Middle East.
True Blue Jew
The coarse nature of our entertainment, which degrades each year to
levels unthinkable a generation ago, is yet another mark of America's
Jewishness. And Jews themselves proudly point to the pornography
industry's effect upon America: "Jewish involvement in pornography
has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped transform
a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of
Americana. These are the 'true blue' Jews." (Jewish professor Nathan
Abrams in an article titled, "Triple Exthnics," published inThe Jewish
Quarterly, winter 2004, extensively quoted by David Duke at his
website.
America's greed and sharp dealings internationally, regarding oil and
the supremacy of the US dollar, are singularly Jewish in nature. Oh,
come on - why do you think it is that "Jew" is one of the very few
racial identifiers to come down through history with a whole separate
meaning as a verb? We don't talk of Brit-ing someone or China-ing
others, after all!
America's new-found international aggression and hostility quite
simply is Jewish. No? Then I suppose it merely is coincidence that
America is taking down Israel's enemies in order of their threat
level. Saddam's fate was sealed by the first scud missile heaved into
Tel Aviv during that first Gulf war. Next up, of course: Iran.
I suppose that it really should be no surprise that there is no place
left in America for those of us who dare to criticize her
ever-increasing Jewishness or the bloodthirsty savagery of that other
Jewish country: Israel. Why else do you suppose that the Kennedy
hate-speech bill keeps getting reintroduced into Congress? Eventually
it will pass - probably very soon now and due to the Democrats now in
control on Capitol Hill. That is when my voice will be silenced.
Here Come Da Pain
My prognosis? Pain. Lots and lots of pain. Both economic and
physical. Our very destruction as a people and a nation is the
objective of our Stockholm-Syndrome-like captors. We are doomed.
Even without the coming outright destruction, our cultural conversion
to Judaism almost is complete, anyway. How many generations before
natural selection would ensure that only the most Jewish acting of
those among us would prosper or, even, survive?
Always, Jews overreach, create a backlash and then get tossed aside.
This time will be no different. Already, the reaction is in movement.
Witness my own conversion and newfound mission in life. Before my
awakening, I was as unaware of Jews as most of America until just very
recently. They created me out of whole cloth. 9-11 and Iraq have
been opening many eyes. Israel's outrageous conduct in Lebanon and
Palestine, coupled with the obvious Jewish control of America through
her leadership, opens even more eyes every day.
Salvation or Destruction? Or Both?
But our society's imminent destruction contains the seeds of our hope
and renewal, as well. Only through the utter destruction of American
society can our grandchildren and their children hope to be free of
the cultural Judaism that now has all of us in its grip and thereby
respond to their own inborn genetic imperative, the same as that which
motivated America's founding fathers. That will be their salvation
and that of our culture, our race.
In reality, perhaps utter destruction is the kindest thing that awaits
us, if only for the sake of our descendants. As a race, I am
confident that we will survive. We always have. It's what we do
best. This will be no exception. We who are alive today will not see
it, of course, but it is coming. Of that I am certain.
Meanwhile, we all must do what we can to make a difference. Living my
life by rock-solid principles, raising up strong, alert, morally
strong and mentally healthy children and writing things like this.
That is what I do. We all have a role to play. What is yours?
New America. An idea whose time has come.
My name is Edgar J. Steele. Thanks for listening. Please visit my
web site, www.ConspiracyPenPal.com, for other messages just like this
one.


http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/

Info
2007-03-28 01:29:50 EST
Topaz wrote:

> by Edgar J. Steele
> "...and I'm glad we killed him!" Thus went one of the more virulent
> of my recent hate mailers, who went on to proclaim the racial
> superiority of his being Jewish. He never said what, in particular,
> set him off, or if, in fact, it was anything I ever had written. His
> intent seemed merely to stun and outrage me. He failed.
> A great many other Jewish haters have echoed this fellow's
> vitriol-laced message by threatening to kill me, my wife and our
> children. (this particularly arrogant Jew actually identified
> himself - he is Mark Wiles, Nevada-based thug for the Jewish Defense
> League).

Sounds like you have a good federal lawsuit you can file. To stop others
from doing that too, it might take punitive damages in the mutli-million
dollar range, to set an example.

>
> Call it Internet graffiti. I've gotten used to it. However, I invite
> you to be outraged. In fact, I encourage you to be outraged. But,
> don't even pretend to be amazed at the brazen and incredibly hostile
> behavior of the Jews behind it all. You have known about it all along
> and you have known full well that it is no coincidence that the perps
> are Jewish. You know that is the very reason for their behavior. You
> have pretended not to notice. Well, I am not inclined to allow you
> this little self deception any longer.
> It is the general lack of outrage on the part of most Americans in the
> face of the Jewish campaign against Western civilization in general
> and Christianity, specifically, that I find amazing.
> This is Not a Religious Issue
> Now, don't confuse this ranting of mine today with anything resembling
> a religious diatribe. Or me with a rapture bunny. Why, I don't even
> go to church - but, then, I doubt that Christ would attend, either,
> given the state of modern religion (a discussion for another day).
> If you are not religious or if you actually dare to admit you are not
> a Christian, the Jewish assault upon Christianity still is your fight,
> because Christianity merely is the symbol. You, gentle reader, are
> the target. You know it is true, too. Admit it.
> Do not stand idly by and allow others like myself to carry our
> standard into battle alone, simply because you pretend not to be at
> war. You may not be interested in this particular war, but rest
> assured that this war irretrievably is interested in you.
> It may be that I will be among the second or the third wave of
> casualties (the first wave already has been taken down and killed or
> imprisoned), but that does not mean that you will escape the
> onslaught. On the contrary - rest assured that, should you allow the
> battle line to reach your ranks before bothering to pitch in and help,
> then you will be praying to God to save you, regardless of your
> particular religious leaning today.
> That's Mr. Anti-Semite to You!
> Do not mistake all the Jewish hatred being spewed in every direction
> these days for justifiable responses to anti-Semitism (whatever that
> means, since the very term presumes no provocation). The threats to
> which you just listened, above, were delivered to my wife, my little
> children and myself before I ever said one word, aloud or in print,
> that could even have been mistaken for being anti-Semitic!
> Both the ADL and the SPLC claim that, only in recent years have I
> "disclosed" my inherent anti-Semitism. What they refuse to consider,
> as always is the case with Jews accusing others of being anti-Semites,
> is the fact that they made me into what you see today. Unlike so many
> others today, I offer no apology. They should be apologizing to me.
> To all comers, I say, "That's Mr. Anti-Semite to you!"
> "We killed Jesus and We're Proud of It"
> You think the email I mentioned above is just one nut case venting?
> You may be right about the nut-case part, but his attitude is far more
> prevalent and hostile than most possibly could imagine. Visit this
> web site and click on the picture for an unsettling video of an
> Israeli threatening Palestinian Christians in their own home, telling
> them, "We killed Jesus and we're proud of it."
> This increasingly-open assault upon the sanctity of Christianity has
> nothing to do with religion. If, like most, you are not a
> participating member of organized - dare I say "institutionalized?" -
> Christianity in America (or elsewhere, for that matter), this still
> affects you. You can be an atheist, yet still you should be outraged!
> Why? Because Christianity so firmly is embedded in our racial
> background, that's why.
> Christianity is an inextricable part of our heritage - of all that
> makes us who and what we are. Not the religious stuff, whatever that
> means, but the ethos ... the lifestyle ... the principles and creed by
> which we conduct ourselves and treat others.
> Take it Personally
> Take it personally, in other words. Believe me, those who send me
> such sentiments as I have today recounted take personally anything
> they decide is anti-Semitic and their response is anything but
> religious in nature or intent.
> This is a racial war and, like it or not, you are a participant. The
> quote that I paraphrased above,"You may not be interested in war, but
> war is interested in you," is an aphorism generally attributed to Leon
> Trotsky, Russian adherent of Karl Marx and a prime architect of
> conditions leading to the mass execution of upwards of 80 million
> White Christians in Russia last century. It is not at all ironic that
> Trotsky (born Lev Bronstein), like virtually all of his fellow
> Communist travelers, was Jewish.
> My experience isn't unique, nor is it confined to those of us who dare
> to use the "J" word in the context of what is wrong with the world
> today.
> All who dare suggest a racial basis for the avarice and aggression
> now carrying America over the edge and into the maw of the coming
> world conflagration and, what's more, who dare identify that race as
> Jewish, have grown accustomed to my low-browed correspondent's sort of
> harsh rhetoric.
> The Cut that Hurts
> Here's what hurts: Getting similar hostility from my own countrymen
> of European extraction. No, not specifically comments like today's
> about Christianity, though that occasionally does issue forth from our
> side of the fence. It's the hostility and anger, even the
> marginalization and indifference concerning any sort of warning or
> complaint that links danger to Jews, generally. No good deed goes
> unpunished.
> Notice that I do not resort to the common cop-out of most who venture
> into these waters and merely bemoan "Zionists." That is the
> politically-correct way of being politically incorrect these days.
> Yes, it is the racially-supremacist, "me first, you dead" outlook of
> the Zionist that I find particularly offensive, but that outlook, in
> itself, is racially based. How could it be otherwise? Think about
> that for a moment, because the logically-inescapable racial basis of
> Semitism and anti-Semitism generally goes unrecognized.
> When is a Jew not a Jew?
> And, yes, I know all about Khazaria and true Semites and the results
> of the Roman diaspora (dispersion of a people formerly concentrated in
> one place) of Biblical Jews. You and I both know what I mean when I
> say "Jew," so don't get distracted with irrelevant, albeit true,
> history.
> Consider the following proposition very carefully - no, seriously, get
> ready to do some slow, clear thinking right about ... here: How could
> it be possible for racial antipathy to be based upon anything but
> race, both coming and going?
> Stop right there! I saw that. Go read that last paragraph again,
> even twice.
> Is It Racial, Religious or Something Else?
> No, we aren't all the same under the skin just because we all bleed
> red. Frogs and bugs bleed red, too. This isn't the place to develop
> the genetic origins of modern cultural bias and limitation. I have
> developed that concept extensively elsewhere, in my book, Defensive
> Racism, which I commend to your attention.
> You might be one who has looked down your nose and dismissed my "sort"
> as racist or, worse, anti-Semitic. In fact, I'd be surprised if you
> didn't have some degree of that attitude present in your thinking at
> this very moment, as you read these very words. Fair enough ...
> please just read on, though. Having acknowledged your thought, don't
> you think that, in fairness, I deserve a hearing? I'll be brief.
> I called this a racial war. Even the most casual observer now must
> acknowledge that what is taking place in the Middle East is a war
> fought for Israel and against Muslims. The oil simply is a cynical
> excuse. We could have bought every last drop of Arab oil, and for
> much less than we are paying for this insanity.
> Here's what all our targets have in common: they are the Muslim
> enemies of Israel. Muslim, not just Arab. Our next target, the
> Iranians, predominantly are Aryan, not Arab, even if mostly Muslim.
> Iran ... Aryan. That is no coincidence. One derives directly from
> the other. Look it up for yourself.
> What you see in the Middle East today is a war between Judaism and
> Islam, simply put. Oddly enough, however, it is not a religious war,
> but a racial war.
> America - Just Another Jewish Nation ... Or Is It?
> That's why the Arabs that Americans fight every day refer to Americans
> as "Jews," a fact you don't see or hear reported by our by our
> controlled media.
> Even more oddly, Islam is much closer to Christianity than is Judaism,
> the latter of which is nothing more than secular humanism, or self
> worship, in the final analysis. Muslims revere Jesus Christ and
> acknowledge His special place. Muslims regard their own Mohammed as
> only a prophet, though held in very high regard. Again, go look it up
> for yourself. You won't believe me, otherwise.
> That business flying around the Internet about the Koran being a book
> of exclusion and a manual for aggression? About Islam's objective
> being the killing of all infidels, with all infidels being
> non-Muslims? About Islam being so unforgiving as to require the
> mutilation of children for stealing bread? Pure propaganda, false in
> every regard, designed to whip up Western support for the racial war
> being waged against the followers of Islam.
> Jews vs. Everybody Else
> A different sort of war is being waged throughout Western
> civilization, with countries like Germany, Austria, Britain and Canada
> farther along and actually imprisoning those who speak just as I do
> today. That is why I dare not visit those countries, even if I never
> said a word while within their borders. It, too, is a racial war,
> being fought in the classic Jewish way: Brother against brother,
> while Jews stand by, wailing loudly about their victimhood, all the
> while supplying both sides. This peculiar war ultimately pits Judaism
> against Christianity. Again, however, it is not really religious, but
> racial. Christianity solidly is in the heritage of Europeans and
> European-Americans. Religion is the excuse. Race is the target.
> We Love Jesus ... Not!
> Just as always, they have us fighting each other, with even America's
> Christians now participating in the demise of Christianity. Consider
> the abject, written apology offered recently by a Virginia Beach
> Catholic school principal because some of his students chanted "We
> love Jesus" during a basketball game with a rival Jewish school. Last
> I heard, the moron had enrolled all those kids in mandatory
> sensitivity training.
> Follow the URL in the previous sentence and note well that it is not
> reported just what the Jewish students had been chanting. Does it
> matter, though? Think about it for a moment. If you are a Christian,
> how could you possibly consider any context in which saying "We love
> Jesus" requires an apology? Didn't Christians endure death in the
> Roman Coliseum for their faith? Isn't this precisely the manner in
> which Judas thrice denied Christ? Would somebody out there who knows
> the guy please point this out to that school principal for me?
> What Does It Mean to be a Christian
> Now, I am not particularly religious, I confess, but I am deeply
> spiritual. What's more, I do my best to lead my life in accordance
> with the very principles enunciated by Jesus Christ. Yes, I know that
> true believers need more: they demand that one utter the magic
> incantation, "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior,"
> or words to that effect. What on earth does that mean? No, it is a
> rhetorical question, so please don't send me endless religious tracts,
> but please do think about it.
> What would Jesus say about one who acts in accordance with His
> teachings versus another who merely pays Him lip service? You know
> the answer, of course. Some of the finest Christians I know never go
> to church. Some of the most clearly un-Christian hypocrites out there
> are knee down in pews every Sunday and walk around with Bibles in
> their hands at all times. You know who you are.
> Christianity is a way of living, not talking ... action, not posture
> ... being, not pretending. As I said, this is about culture, about
> race and heritage, not religion. It is about what we are and the way
> we are at our very core. Our very existence is a constant reminder to
> others of what they are not. It may not matter to you, but it
> certainly does to Jews, regardless of what you might think.
> Are We What We Do, or What We Say?
> Here's the punch line: Christian countries do not bomb third-world
> countries like Iraq and Afghanistan back into the stone age. Jewish
> countries do, though. Just ask any Palestinian.
> It was no coincidence that those Lebanese ambulances targeted by
> Israeli jets during its recent genocidal campaign against the civilian
> population of southern Lebanon (principally Christian Lebanese, by the
> way) were holed directly in the center of the red crosses on their
> roofs. (Ambulances...carrying injured children, of all things.)
> Nor is it coincidental that the international Red Cross now has
> agreed, at Israel's insistence, to replace its traditional symbolic
> cross with ... well, I'm not sure what to call the symbol on this flag
> held by a Red Cross official, nor am I sure that the organization even
> will continue to call itself the Red Cross. I am ashamed to admit
> that, in the past, I have contributed to this shameless, so-called
> charity with its grotesquely overpaid executives. Never again,
> however, and don't you do it, either!
> Yes, of course the Israeli Jews intentionally blew up those ambulances
> with pinpoint guided rockets simply because of the presence of the
> crosses on the roofs. Yes, it is far more than coincidence that the
> penetration was directly in the center of the cross. Don't be naive.
> Do You Believe in Coincidence?
> Nor is it coincidence that the nonstop legal assault upon Christianity
> in America is being brought by Jewish plaintiffs, through Jewish
> lawyers, heard by Jewish judges. It is America's European culture
> they are after eradicating, of course, which means our elimination
> altogether. It's racial, not religious. Stop and think! Why are the
> borders of every Western civilized nation being held wide open to the
> third world, after all, quite aside from the profit motive inherent to
> killing all American industry by moving it overseas?
> I've said it before: America has become Jewish. By culture. It has
> crept into our outlook and our attitudes, dispensed largely through
> the major institutions firmly in Jewish control: media, entertainment
> and government. Of course, American industry also is largely Jewish
> controlled, but that, too, simply is another expression of how Jewish
> we have become. Think not? Just look at the corporate scavengers
> carving up the spoils in the Middle East.
> True Blue Jew
> The coarse nature of our entertainment, which degrades each year to
> levels unthinkable a generation ago, is yet another mark of America's
> Jewishness. And Jews themselves proudly point to the pornography
> industry's effect upon America: "Jewish involvement in pornography
> has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped transform
> a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of
> Americana. These are the 'true blue' Jews." (Jewish professor Nathan
> Abrams in an article titled, "Triple Exthnics," published inThe Jewish
> Quarterly, winter 2004, extensively quoted by David Duke at his
> website.
> America's greed and sharp dealings internationally, regarding oil and
> the supremacy of the US dollar, are singularly Jewish in nature. Oh,
> come on - why do you think it is that "Jew" is one of the very few
> racial identifiers to come down through history with a whole separate
> meaning as a verb? We don't talk of Brit-ing someone or China-ing
> others, after all!
> America's new-found international aggression and hostility quite
> simply is Jewish. No? Then I suppose it merely is coincidence that
> America is taking down Israel's enemies in order of their threat
> level. Saddam's fate was sealed by the first scud missile heaved into
> Tel Aviv during that first Gulf war. Next up, of course: Iran.
> I suppose that it really should be no surprise that there is no place
> left in America for those of us who dare to criticize her
> ever-increasing Jewishness or the bloodthirsty savagery of that other
> Jewish country: Israel. Why else do you suppose that the Kennedy
> hate-speech bill keeps getting reintroduced into Congress? Eventually
> it will pass - probably very soon now and due to the Democrats now in
> control on Capitol Hill. That is when my voice will be silenced.
> Here Come Da Pain
> My prognosis? Pain. Lots and lots of pain. Both economic and
> physical. Our very destruction as a people and a nation is the
> objective of our Stockholm-Syndrome-like captors. We are doomed.
> Even without the coming outright destruction, our cultural conversion
> to Judaism almost is complete, anyway. How many generations before
> natural selection would ensure that only the most Jewish acting of
> those among us would prosper or, even, survive?
> Always, Jews overreach, create a backlash and then get tossed aside.
> This time will be no different. Already, the reaction is in movement.
> Witness my own conversion and newfound mission in life. Before my
> awakening, I was as unaware of Jews as most of America until just very
> recently. They created me out of whole cloth. 9-11 and Iraq have
> been opening many eyes. Israel's outrageous conduct in Lebanon and
> Palestine, coupled with the obvious Jewish control of America through
> her leadership, opens even more eyes every day.
> Salvation or Destruction? Or Both?
> But our society's imminent destruction contains the seeds of our hope
> and renewal, as well. Only through the utter destruction of American
> society can our grandchildren and their children hope to be free of
> the cultural Judaism that now has all of us in its grip and thereby
> respond to their own inborn genetic imperative, the same as that which
> motivated America's founding fathers. That will be their salvation
> and that of our culture, our race.
> In reality, perhaps utter destruction is the kindest thing that awaits
> us, if only for the sake of our descendants. As a race, I am
> confident that we will survive. We always have. It's what we do
> best. This will be no exception. We who are alive today will not see
> it, of course, but it is coming. Of that I am certain.
> Meanwhile, we all must do what we can to make a difference. Living my
> life by rock-solid principles, raising up strong, alert, morally
> strong and mentally healthy children and writing things like this.
> That is what I do. We all have a role to play. What is yours?
> New America. An idea whose time has come.
> My name is Edgar J. Steele. Thanks for listening. Please visit my
> web site, www.ConspiracyPenPal.com, for other messages just like this
> one.
>
> http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com
>
> http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/
>
> http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/


Topaz
2007-03-28 20:31:54 EST
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:29:50 -0400, Info <info@info.nospam.com> wrote:


>
>> by Edgar J. Steele
>> "...and I'm glad we killed him!" Thus went one of the more virulent
>> of my recent hate mailers, who went on to proclaim the racial
>> superiority of his being Jewish. He never said what, in particular,
>> set him off, or if, in fact, it was anything I ever had written. His
>> intent seemed merely to stun and outrage me. He failed.
>> A great many other Jewish haters have echoed this fellow's
>> vitriol-laced message by threatening to kill me, my wife and our
>> children. (this particularly arrogant Jew actually identified
>> himself - he is Mark Wiles, Nevada-based thug for the Jewish Defense
>> League).
>
>Sounds like you have a good federal lawsuit you can file. To stop others
>from doing that too, it might take punitive damages in the mutli-million
>dollar range, to set an example.

Edgar Steele is a lawyer. I'm sure he knows how fair and just the
courts are and doesn't bother trying. Imagine if one from our side
threatened a Jew like that. That would be a whole different story.


http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/

Tim Howard
2007-03-30 02:48:09 EST
Topaz wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:29:50 -0400, Info <info@info.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> by Edgar J. Steele
>>> "...and I'm glad we killed him!" Thus went one of the more virulent
>>> of my recent hate mailers, who went on to proclaim the racial
>>> superiority of his being Jewish. He never said what, in particular,
>>> set him off, or if, in fact, it was anything I ever had written. His
>>> intent seemed merely to stun and outrage me. He failed.
>>> A great many other Jewish haters have echoed this fellow's
>>> vitriol-laced message by threatening to kill me, my wife and our
>>> children. (this particularly arrogant Jew actually identified
>>> himself - he is Mark Wiles, Nevada-based thug for the Jewish Defense
>>> League).
>> Sounds like you have a good federal lawsuit you can file. To stop others
>>from doing that too, it might take punitive damages in the mutli-million
>> dollar range, to set an example.
>
> Edgar Steele is a lawyer. I'm sure he knows how fair and just the
> courts are and doesn't bother trying. Imagine if one from our side
> threatened a Jew like that. That would be a whole different story.

You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Hate crime laws cover when one
hurts or threatens to hurt someone because of their race, religion,
sexual orientation etc. It does not prohibit people from saying hateful
things such a the above about Christianity or bigoted statements against
different races like what you guys post all the time.

Topaz
2007-03-30 18:56:59 EST
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:48:09 -0700, Tim Howard
<*d@suddenlink.net> wrote:


>
>You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Hate crime laws cover when one
>hurts or threatens to hurt someone because of their race, religion,
>sexual orientation etc. It does not prohibit people from saying hateful
>things such a the above about Christianity or bigoted statements against
> different races like what you guys post all the time.

The problem with liberals is they think the other liberals who run
the government are reasonable people like themselves. They couldn't be
more mistaken. The liberals who run the government are Jews. Want
proof of how wrong these liberals are? They passed hate crime laws in
Canada. Now Canadians preachers are afraid to say homosexual
perversion is wrong, for fear of getting arrested.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/

Tim Howard
2007-03-31 00:04:48 EST
Topaz wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:48:09 -0700, Tim Howard
> <tim.howard@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>> You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Hate crime laws cover when one
>> hurts or threatens to hurt someone because of their race, religion,
>> sexual orientation etc. It does not prohibit people from saying hateful
>> things such a the above about Christianity or bigoted statements against
>> different races like what you guys post all the time.
>
> The problem with liberals is they think the other liberals who run
> the government are reasonable people like themselves. They couldn't be
> more mistaken. The liberals who run the government are Jews. Want
> proof of how wrong these liberals are? They passed hate crime laws in
> Canada. Now Canadians preachers are afraid to say homosexual
> perversion is wrong, for fear of getting arrested.
>
Just to clarify, here is a summary from a Canadian website about this
hate crime law. I do not favor putting people in jail just for saying
bigoted things, but if those things were likely to cause people to
commit violence against people, then I think hate speech laws may be
good, if applied in a limited way. And it does not target preachers as
you have said.


Status of free speech in Canada:

In the U.S., a person cannot legally yell "fire" in a crowded movie
theatre. But they are free to say just about anything else without
danger of criminal prosecution. For example, a conservative Christian
teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans
in the U.S. More recently, a Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that
the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm. Both
clergy were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First
Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the
country. (We do not wish to overemphasize genocidal advocacy of Wiccans
by conservative Christians. However, we are unaware of any other
instances in North America where genocide has been actively advocated in
recent years.)

Canadians do not have this degree of freedom of speech. Legislation in
Canada follows the British tradition, as do laws in Australia and New
Zealand and some other former colonies. In particular, citizens are not
allowed to incite or promote hatred, advocate genocide or actually
commit genocide against certain specified groups.

horizontal rule
The Criminal Code of Canada: Hate Propaganda:

Before 2004-APR-29, the "Hate Propaganda" section of the Criminal Code
of Canada (Section 318 & 319) prohibited the expression of hatred
against -- or the advocacy of genocide of -- four "identifiable groups:"
people distinguished by their "color, race, religion or ethnic origin."
1 Curiously enough, sex, disability, and other criteria are not
included. Apparently one can deliver a speech that "willfully promotes
hatred" -- even one which "advocates or promotes genocide" -- against
women or the disabled and enjoy immunity of prosecution under the law.
Hatred against persons on the basis of their sexual orientation was not
protected either. An individual could promote hatred or even advocate
genocide against heterosexuals, bisexuals, or homosexuals with impunity,
as long as the speech was directed at persons with a specific sexual
orientation. Bill C-250 changed this when it was signed into law.

horizontal rule
Who can be convicted under Section 319?

Section 318 deals with genocide. Section 319 deals with hate speech:

1. If it can be shown that the speech was so abusive that it was
likely to incite listeners or readers into violent action against an
identifiable group, and if the the speech was made in a public place,
then a person could be convicted.
2. If the speech promoted hatred against an identifiable group, but
was not likely to incite a listener to violence, then a person could
still be convicted. However there are many safeguards that could give
that person immunity. A person could not be convicted if:
bullet The hate speech was expressed during a private conversation.
bullet If the person can establish that the statements made are true.
bullet If, "in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish
by argument an opinion on a religious subject." This would give
clergypersons immunity from conviction for a hate-based sermon, for example.
bullet If the statements were relevant to any subject of public
interest, and if, on reasonable grounds, the person believed them to be
true. This would give additional protection for the clergy.
bullet If he described material that might generate feelings of
hatred for an identifiable group "for the purpose of removal" of that
hatred.
bullet If the provincial Attorney General refused to give
permission. The Attorney General's consent is required before charges
can be laid.. 1

In this section of the Code, the term "statements" includes spoken
words, written words, published text, gestures, signs and other visible
representations.

The Code permits up to two years in prison for anyone convicted of a
hate crime. It permits the government to confiscate any literature that
was used in conjunction with the hate speech.

horizontal rule
Immunity from prosecution under the Criminal Code:

Two examples:
bullet The Hugh Owen's case: Restriction on freedom of religious speech
in Canada was emphasized in the Hugh Owens human rights case in
Saskatchewan during late 2002. A private citizen had taken out an
anti-gay, religiously based advertisement in a local newspaper. 2

The Hugh Owens case was not directly related to the hate propaganda
section of the criminal code, or to bill C-250. Even after "sexual
orientation" had been added to section 308, he is immune from
prosecution under the criminal code because his "speech" was closely
tied to a religious statement. The charge was actually laid under a
provincial human rights law.

The ad consisted of a simple list of citations of Bible passages --
not including texts -- which religious conservatives commonly quote
when attacking equal rights for persons who engage in same-sex behavior.
Beside the list was a symbol consisting of two male stick figures
holding hands, a diagonal slash, and a red circle indicating
prohibition. One of the six passages listed was Leviticus 20:13 which,
in most English translations appears to call for the execution by
stoning of any sexually active gay male who has engaged in anal
intercourse. There is no consensus among theologians as to the exact
meaning of the passage. Many religious liberals believe that only those
gays who engaged in same-sex anal intercourse during religious rituals
in Pagan temples would qualify for execution. The King James Version of
the text reads:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to
death. Their blood shall be upon them." (KJV)

"The judge ruled that a Biblical passage in Leviticus 'exposes
homosexuals to hatred'," when it was used in conjunction with the
symbol.' 3 The ruling was later overturned by Saskatchewan's highest
court. More details.

bullet This essay: The above text contains a quotation from a Bible
verse that could be considered as inciting hatred against gays -- at
least those gays who engage in anal intercourse. However, the author is
probably immune from prosecution, for two reasons:
bullet Even though the biblical quotation might inspire a felling of
hatred towards sexually active gays, the author "...in good
faith,...expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a
religious subject."
bullet He described material that might generate feelings of hatred for
an identifiable group "for the purpose of removal" of that hatred.

Topaz
2007-03-31 08:53:07 EST
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:04:48 -0700, Tim Howard
<*d@suddenlink.net> wrote:


>Just to clarify, here is a summary from a Canadian website about this
>hate crime law. I do not favor putting people in jail just for saying
>bigoted things, but if those things were likely to cause people to
>commit violence against people, then I think hate speech laws may be
>good, if applied in a limited way. And it does not target preachers as
>you have said.

Then you are against free speech. Finally some honesty.

>
>Status of free speech in Canada:
>
>In the U.S., a person cannot legally yell "fire" in a crowded movie
>theatre.

But what if there really is a fire.

Jews do control the media and the government.

Blacks are on average less intelligent than Whites.

And homosexual perverts really are cocksuckers.


> But they are free to say just about anything else without
>danger of criminal prosecution. For example, a conservative Christian
>teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans
>in the U.S. More recently, a Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that
>the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm. Both
>clergy were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First
>Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the
>country. (We do not wish to overemphasize genocidal advocacy of Wiccans
>by conservative Christians. However, we are unaware of any other
>instances in North America where genocide has been actively advocated in
>recent years.)
>
>Canadians do not have this degree of freedom of speech. Legislation in
>Canada follows the British tradition, as do laws in Australia and New
>Zealand and some other former colonies. In particular, citizens are not
>allowed to incite or promote hatred,

I think we have all seen enough now.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/

Tim Howard
2007-03-31 16:44:41 EST
Topaz wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:04:48 -0700, Tim Howard
> <tim.howard@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Just to clarify, here is a summary from a Canadian website about this
>> hate crime law. I do not favor putting people in jail just for saying
>> bigoted things, but if those things were likely to cause people to
>> commit violence against people, then I think hate speech laws may be
>> good, if applied in a limited way. And it does not target preachers as
>> you have said.
>
> Then you are against free speech. Finally some honesty.
>
No, I said if one publicly encourages violence against a group or an
individual, this is not free speech. Even in America we have laws
against inciting riots. I do not support laws that would put someone in
jail just because they tell the lie that the holocaust did not happen,
for example. I was not supporting every aspect of the Canadian law. As
for you neo-nazis and free speech, the only kind you seem to support is
speech that you agree with.

>> Status of free speech in Canada:
>>
>> In the U.S., a person cannot legally yell "fire" in a crowded movie
>> theater.
>
> But what if there really is a fire.
>
Then they have to show evidence of that. Which in one of the exceptions
to the Canadian hate speech law.
>
>> But they are free to say just about anything else without
>> danger of criminal prosecution. For example, a conservative Christian
>> teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans
>> in the U.S. More recently, a Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that
>> the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm. Both
>> clergy were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First
>> Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the
>> country. (We do not wish to overemphasize genocidal advocacy of Wiccans
>> by conservative Christians. However, we are unaware of any other
>> instances in North America where genocide has been actively advocated in
>> recent years.)
>>
>> Canadians do not have this degree of freedom of speech. Legislation in
>> Canada follows the British tradition, as do laws in Australia and New
>> Zealand and some other former colonies. In particular, citizens are not
>> allowed to incite or promote hatred,
>
> I think we have all seen enough now.
>
No, you deleted all the exceptions to prosocution under the Canadian
law, one of which is that hate speech can be made in a religious
context. I was merely addressing your lie that preachers could be put
in jail if they say homosexuality is perverted.

Topaz
2007-04-01 10:04:37 EST
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:44:41 -0700, Tim Howard
<*d@suddenlink.net> wrote:

>
>No, I said if one publicly encourages violence against a group or an
>individual, this is not free speech.

For God's sake will you stop you eternal spinning. You liberals are
only fooling yourselves no one else. George Washington would have been
arrested for thought crimes for wanting to revolt against the British.

> Even in America we have laws
>against inciting riots. I do not support laws that would put someone in
>jail just because they tell the lie that the holocaust did not happen,
>for example. I was not supporting every aspect of the Canadian law. As
>for you neo-nazis and free speech, the only kind you seem to support is
>speech that you agree with.

There is nothing wrong with the speech laws in the USA now. Liberals
want to ban "hate speech". You are one of these liberals. Either you
are for leaving the speech laws alone or you are some kind of
Communist or whatever.

>> But what if there really is a fire.
>>
>Then they have to show evidence of that. Which in one of the exceptions
>to the Canadian hate speech law.

You are too full of it to talk to.


http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.ihr.org/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html http://www.nsm88.com/

Tim Howard
2007-04-01 16:01:00 EST
Topaz wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:44:41 -0700, Tim Howard
> <tim.howard@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>> No, I said if one publicly encourages violence against a group or an
>> individual, this is not free speech.
>
> For God's sake will you stop you eternal spinning. You liberals are
> only fooling yourselves no one else. George Washington would have been
> arrested for thought crimes for wanting to revolt against the British.
>
You are the one getting off topic. I have never heard you advocate
violence and murder against non-whites or gays (although you advocate
cruel and unusual punishment, as defined by the US Constitution). Why
are arguing with me over whether or not people should be encouraging
violence? Once on here, when one of your white nationalist buddies was
talking about committing violence against the hated Jews, you admonished
him not to do things like that because you didn't want him to be put in
prison etc.

>> Even in America we have laws
>> against inciting riots. I do not support laws that would put someone in
>> jail just because they tell the lie that the holocaust did not happen,
>> for example. I was not supporting every aspect of the Canadian law. As
>> for you neo-nazis and free speech, the only kind you seem to support is
>> speech that you agree with.
>
> There is nothing wrong with the speech laws in the USA now. Liberals
> want to ban "hate speech". You are one of these liberals. Either you
> are for leaving the speech laws alone or you are some kind of
> Communist or whatever.
>
I am not a Communist, I am a leftist.

As I said speech is one thing, encouraging violence is another. It was
wrong for those Christian fanatics that I quoted to say Wiccans should
all be rounded up and burned at the stake, like in Medieval times. If
someone hearing their words had gone out and killed a Wiccan, then that
preacher that made that speech should be punished as an accessary. Back
in the 80s, the SPLC successfully sued a KKK organization out of
business when they proved in court that a racial killing by 2
individuals would not have happened had they not been encouraged to do
so by their KKK org. People can advocate their bigoted beliefs if they
want, but they should do it peacefully.

If a Communist organization advocated murdering rich capitalists and big
business owners, you would say they should be punished, wouldn't you?
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