Activism Discussion: Greenland Ice Melt Shocks Scientists

Greenland Ice Melt Shocks Scientists
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EconomicDemocracy Coop
2007-09-09 21:17:26 EST
"Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster."

"Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that."

[Go back and count them - this is about the 10th or so article showing
an example where the scientists not only did not "Exaggerate" but,
quite
the opposite, had under-estimated the size of global warming. Take
Rush
Limbaugh's claims and put them upside down and you begin to estimate
the mess we're in -ED]

Greenland ice melt shocks scientists

ising sea level - Climate models failed to foresee the acceleration,
and the far-reaching effects are likely to bring more Northwest rain

KANGERLUSSUAQ, Greenland -- The vast ice sheet that coats Greenland up
to 2 miles thick is reacting to global warming far faster than
scientists thought it would.

It makes some of them wonder whether they've underestimated the speed
of changes a warmer climate brings.

A few decades ago, Greenland's glaciers had little bearing on Oregon.
Now they're melting and sliding into the ocean quickly enough to
measurably -- though slightly -- raise the sea level on the coast of
Oregon and around the world.

It is [not the current amount but] the acceleration that stuns
scientists. Greenland's glaciers are adding up to 58 trillion gallons
of water a year to the oceans, more than twice as much as a decade ago
and enough to supply more than 250 cities the size of Los Angeles,
NASA research shows.

That's particularly unsettling because elaborate climate models that
scientists use to estimate the effects of global warming did not
foresee it. Scientists themselves never imagined Greenland's ice,
which holds enough water to raise sea levels 23 feet and sits in
position to influence Northwest weather, would move so quickly.

"The overriding mind-set was that it would take many centuries to
change in any significant way," said Robert Bindschadler, a leading
ice researcher and chief scientist at NASA's Hydrospheric and
Biospheric Sciences Laboratory. "The whole community was astonished at
how rapidly these really large glaciers are accelerating."

So much ice is disappearing so rapidly that the earth beneath
Greenland is rising -- bouncing back like a bathroom scale when you
step off it. Researchers helicoptering around Greenland are now
dotting its coast with global positioning units to track that rise.

Higher temperatures are melting more of the ice sheet, at higher
elevations than ever known before.

Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster.

Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that.

"You don't need to melt much of Greenland to have a pretty big
effect," said Christina Hulbe, a professor at Portland State
University who specializes in the behavior of glaciers. "The fact that
it's already happening faster than people thought possible -- that's
reason to be concerned."

Though predictions of higher temperatures, melting ice and rising seas
as the world warms may strike some as overstated, scientists now
wonder whether they might actually be understated.

"Feedback" mechanisms

In particular, climate models that did not foresee Greenland's rapid
changes might not fully recognize "feedback" mechanisms where warming
drives changes that, in turn, drive even more rapid warming.

"I think they're too conservative," Bindschadler said. "I have no
doubt that sea level will rise, and it will probably rise at an
increasing rate."

Though climate models project melting of ice, they have a tougher time
foreseeing changes in the way the ice moves -- something scientists
still do not clearly understand, but which is turning out to be a
dominant means of delivering ice to the sea.

Those forces within ice operate on such small scales, they remain out
of focus of the global climate models that provide most forecasts of
climate change.

"There's no way they can get it right," Hulbe said.

Greenland's ice is vulnerable to warming for some of the same reasons
that glaciers on Mount Hood and throughout the Cascades are
vulnerable. Both lie in climates mild enough that only slight warming
can rapidly speed their disintegration.

The difference is that Greenland contains thousands of times more ice,
and though melting of Cascade glaciers affects the Northwest, the
melting of Greenland affects the world.

It's clear that the climate has changed radically and rapidly in the
past, with Greenland at the center of that change. Climate records
suggest that modern humans have lived in a period of climatic calm and
that wild swings in climate -- even without [being made worse by]
human-driven climate change -- are much more the rule than the
exception.

"Everyone around the world could experience abrupt climate change in
the future," said Ed Brook, a professor at Oregon State University who
examines ice cores from Greenland that reveal how the climate has
behaved in the past. "We don't really know why they happen, but we
know that Greenland is where they happen."

Irreversible slide?

A central question is whether warming has already pushed Greenland
into an irreversible slide that will change the world, as it has
before.

Greenland, about three times the size of Texas, strongly affects the
world's climate. The Nazis, recognizing that influence, installed
secret weather stations along its coast during World War II that U.S.
troops worked feverishly to destroy.

Researchers now believe the influence reaches as far as the Pacific
Northwest, and will probably alter Northwest weather as ice covering
the ocean around Greenland melts away. That ice is also shrinking
faster than models predicted, setting off a rush by nearby nations to
claim rights to possible oil reserves below.

More Arctic sea ice melted this summer than ever before recorded, and
many suspect it will disappear entirely by midcentury.

The melting removes an insulating blanket from the ocean surface,
releasing warmth from the water into the cold air above as towering
columns of warmer air.

Those columns appear to reorient global air flows the way a boulder
falling into a stream reorients the current, said Jacob Sewall, a
professor of geosciences at Virginia Tech, who has used atmospheric
models to study the effect. The result is that the stream that carries
storms over the West Coast of North America shifts north, turning much
of California drier, and the Northwest wetter.

"Instead of hitting near San Francisco, they'll be pushed to the north
and come in over Oregon," Sewall said. "The ice changes we're seeing
now appear to be following this pattern. We're already seeing some of
these precipitation shifts in western North America."

It signals how what might seem like a subtle change as far away as
Greenland makes a difference in Oregon.

"It's not just that the polar bears no longer have ice," Sewall said.
"This can have a far-field effect as well."

Michael Milstein: 503-294-7689; michaelmilstein@ news.oregonian.com

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1189232816204570.xml&coll=7

=============

DON'T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION:

http://www.earthshare.org/get_involved/involved.html
http://www.greenhousenet.org/
http://www.solarcatalyst.com/
http://www.campaignearth.org/buy_green_nativeenergy.asp

Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org
=============

= = = =
STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
= = = =
Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
More news: UseNet's misc.activism.progressive (moderated)
= = = =
Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)

** Email Note: "info" and "map" etc DON'T work. Now:
econdemocracy(at)gmail


Mirelle
2007-09-10 02:12:33 EST

EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster."


As the ice melts it exposes Perma Frost.
Perma Frost, exelerates global warming alarmingly.
It has not been calculated in the future projections of climate
change.
Making all projections, too conservative.
Perma Frost, emits gasses that are full of carbon monoxide. Some
scientists are saying the exposed Perma Frost creates as much carbon
monoxide as all the gasoline vehicles combined.
The is nothing more important than concentrating on the environment.
If this were the case all other problems such as war, and exploitation
of people and resources, would also have to be dealt with--by non-
violent resolution.
For humans will see that the way of life..dominator/aggressor has been
disaterous.
A fundamental drastic change must happen, or we will not survive this
annhilation/matricide.

Mirelle

> "Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
> times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
> rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that."
>
> [Go back and count them - this is about the 10th or so article showing
> an example where the scientists not only did not "Exaggerate" but,
> quite
> the opposite, had under-estimated the size of global warming. Take
> Rush
> Limbaugh's claims and put them upside down and you begin to estimate
> the mess we're in -ED]
>
> Greenland ice melt shocks scientists
>
> ising sea level - Climate models failed to foresee the acceleration,
> and the far-reaching effects are likely to bring more Northwest rain
>
> KANGERLUSSUAQ, Greenland -- The vast ice sheet that coats Greenland up
> to 2 miles thick is reacting to global warming far faster than
> scientists thought it would.
>
> It makes some of them wonder whether they've underestimated the speed
> of changes a warmer climate brings.
>
> A few decades ago, Greenland's glaciers had little bearing on Oregon.
> Now they're melting and sliding into the ocean quickly enough to
> measurably -- though slightly -- raise the sea level on the coast of
> Oregon and around the world.
>
> It is [not the current amount but] the acceleration that stuns
> scientists. Greenland's glaciers are adding up to 58 trillion gallons
> of water a year to the oceans, more than twice as much as a decade ago
> and enough to supply more than 250 cities the size of Los Angeles,
> NASA research shows.
>
> That's particularly unsettling because elaborate climate models that
> scientists use to estimate the effects of global warming did not
> foresee it. Scientists themselves never imagined Greenland's ice,
> which holds enough water to raise sea levels 23 feet and sits in
> position to influence Northwest weather, would move so quickly.
>
> "The overriding mind-set was that it would take many centuries to
> change in any significant way," said Robert Bindschadler, a leading
> ice researcher and chief scientist at NASA's Hydrospheric and
> Biospheric Sciences Laboratory. "The whole community was astonished at
> how rapidly these really large glaciers are accelerating."
>
> So much ice is disappearing so rapidly that the earth beneath
> Greenland is rising -- bouncing back like a bathroom scale when you
> step off it. Researchers helicoptering around Greenland are now
> dotting its coast with global positioning units to track that rise.
>
> Higher temperatures are melting more of the ice sheet, at higher
> elevations than ever known before.
>
> Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster.
>
> Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
> times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
> rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that.
>
> "You don't need to melt much of Greenland to have a pretty big
> effect," said Christina Hulbe, a professor at Portland State
> University who specializes in the behavior of glaciers. "The fact that
> it's already happening faster than people thought possible -- that's
> reason to be concerned."
>
> Though predictions of higher temperatures, melting ice and rising seas
> as the world warms may strike some as overstated, scientists now
> wonder whether they might actually be understated.
>
> "Feedback" mechanisms
>
> In particular, climate models that did not foresee Greenland's rapid
> changes might not fully recognize "feedback" mechanisms where warming
> drives changes that, in turn, drive even more rapid warming.
>
> "I think they're too conservative," Bindschadler said. "I have no
> doubt that sea level will rise, and it will probably rise at an
> increasing rate."
>
> Though climate models project melting of ice, they have a tougher time
> foreseeing changes in the way the ice moves -- something scientists
> still do not clearly understand, but which is turning out to be a
> dominant means of delivering ice to the sea.
>
> Those forces within ice operate on such small scales, they remain out
> of focus of the global climate models that provide most forecasts of
> climate change.
>
> "There's no way they can get it right," Hulbe said.
>
> Greenland's ice is vulnerable to warming for some of the same reasons
> that glaciers on Mount Hood and throughout the Cascades are
> vulnerable. Both lie in climates mild enough that only slight warming
> can rapidly speed their disintegration.
>
> The difference is that Greenland contains thousands of times more ice,
> and though melting of Cascade glaciers affects the Northwest, the
> melting of Greenland affects the world.
>
> It's clear that the climate has changed radically and rapidly in the
> past, with Greenland at the center of that change. Climate records
> suggest that modern humans have lived in a period of climatic calm and
> that wild swings in climate -- even without [being made worse by]
> human-driven climate change -- are much more the rule than the
> exception.
>
> "Everyone around the world could experience abrupt climate change in
> the future," said Ed Brook, a professor at Oregon State University who
> examines ice cores from Greenland that reveal how the climate has
> behaved in the past. "We don't really know why they happen, but we
> know that Greenland is where they happen."
>
> Irreversible slide?
>
> A central question is whether warming has already pushed Greenland
> into an irreversible slide that will change the world, as it has
> before.
>
> Greenland, about three times the size of Texas, strongly affects the
> world's climate. The Nazis, recognizing that influence, installed
> secret weather stations along its coast during World War II that U.S.
> troops worked feverishly to destroy.
>
> Researchers now believe the influence reaches as far as the Pacific
> Northwest, and will probably alter Northwest weather as ice covering
> the ocean around Greenland melts away. That ice is also shrinking
> faster than models predicted, setting off a rush by nearby nations to
> claim rights to possible oil reserves below.
>
> More Arctic sea ice melted this summer than ever before recorded, and
> many suspect it will disappear entirely by midcentury.
>
> The melting removes an insulating blanket from the ocean surface,
> releasing warmth from the water into the cold air above as towering
> columns of warmer air.
>
> Those columns appear to reorient global air flows the way a boulder
> falling into a stream reorients the current, said Jacob Sewall, a
> professor of geosciences at Virginia Tech, who has used atmospheric
> models to study the effect. The result is that the stream that carries
> storms over the West Coast of North America shifts north, turning much
> of California drier, and the Northwest wetter.
>
> "Instead of hitting near San Francisco, they'll be pushed to the north
> and come in over Oregon," Sewall said. "The ice changes we're seeing
> now appear to be following this pattern. We're already seeing some of
> these precipitation shifts in western North America."
>
> It signals how what might seem like a subtle change as far away as
> Greenland makes a difference in Oregon.
>
> "It's not just that the polar bears no longer have ice," Sewall said.
> "This can have a far-field effect as well."
>
> Michael Milstein: 503-294-7689; michaelmilstein@ news.oregonian.com
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1189232816204570.xml&coll=7
>
> =============
>
> DON'T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION:
>
> http://www.earthshare.org/get_involved/involved.html
> http://www.greenhousenet.org/
> http://www.solarcatalyst.com/
> http://www.campaignearth.org/buy_green_nativeenergy.asp
>
> Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org
> =============
>
> = = = =
> STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
> IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
> = = = =
> Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
> More news: UseNet's misc.activism.progressive (moderated)
> = = = =
> Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
> For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
> And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
>
> ** Email Note: "info" and "map" etc DON'T work. Now:
> econdemocracy(at)gmail


Rick Merrill
2007-09-10 14:43:00 EST
EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster."
...
Are they talking about the 'sea level' offshore of Greenland? mmmm...

Akneigh Wombuster
2007-09-10 15:09:51 EST
------ IT'S OKAY! WHY DO YOU THINK RUSSIA LAID CLAIM TO THE NORTH
POLE REGION? -----

They know that area will be dry land come, say, the year 2070.

And don't even think about the Moon. The Chinese have already claimed
its mineral rights.

Meanwhile, your White House war criminal and Nincompoop-in-Chief is
distracted by the U.S. body count in Iraq and Afghanistan!

------


Jerry Okamura
2007-09-10 21:01:39 EST
I would think that scientist should be able to easily figure out what the
maximum rise in sea levels would be. All you would need to know is how much
snow and ice exists. "If" all of that melts, that would tell you the
maximum rise in sea levels, substracting that water that would never reach
the sea.

"EconomicDemocracy Coop" <econdemocracy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189387046.954559.233770@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster."
>
> "Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
> times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
> rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that."
>
> [Go back and count them - this is about the 10th or so article showing
> an example where the scientists not only did not "Exaggerate" but,
> quite
> the opposite, had under-estimated the size of global warming. Take
> Rush
> Limbaugh's claims and put them upside down and you begin to estimate
> the mess we're in -ED]
>
> Greenland ice melt shocks scientists
>
> ising sea level - Climate models failed to foresee the acceleration,
> and the far-reaching effects are likely to bring more Northwest rain
>
> KANGERLUSSUAQ, Greenland -- The vast ice sheet that coats Greenland up
> to 2 miles thick is reacting to global warming far faster than
> scientists thought it would.
>
> It makes some of them wonder whether they've underestimated the speed
> of changes a warmer climate brings.
>
> A few decades ago, Greenland's glaciers had little bearing on Oregon.
> Now they're melting and sliding into the ocean quickly enough to
> measurably -- though slightly -- raise the sea level on the coast of
> Oregon and around the world.
>
> It is [not the current amount but] the acceleration that stuns
> scientists. Greenland's glaciers are adding up to 58 trillion gallons
> of water a year to the oceans, more than twice as much as a decade ago
> and enough to supply more than 250 cities the size of Los Angeles,
> NASA research shows.
>
> That's particularly unsettling because elaborate climate models that
> scientists use to estimate the effects of global warming did not
> foresee it. Scientists themselves never imagined Greenland's ice,
> which holds enough water to raise sea levels 23 feet and sits in
> position to influence Northwest weather, would move so quickly.
>
> "The overriding mind-set was that it would take many centuries to
> change in any significant way," said Robert Bindschadler, a leading
> ice researcher and chief scientist at NASA's Hydrospheric and
> Biospheric Sciences Laboratory. "The whole community was astonished at
> how rapidly these really large glaciers are accelerating."
>
> So much ice is disappearing so rapidly that the earth beneath
> Greenland is rising -- bouncing back like a bathroom scale when you
> step off it. Researchers helicoptering around Greenland are now
> dotting its coast with global positioning units to track that rise.
>
> Higher temperatures are melting more of the ice sheet, at higher
> elevations than ever known before.
>
> Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster.
>
> Scientists know that seas rose as fast as a foot a decade -- some 10
> times faster than today -- when the climate warmed in the past at the
> rate it is now. Greenland probably contributed much of that.
>
> "You don't need to melt much of Greenland to have a pretty big
> effect," said Christina Hulbe, a professor at Portland State
> University who specializes in the behavior of glaciers. "The fact that
> it's already happening faster than people thought possible -- that's
> reason to be concerned."
>
> Though predictions of higher temperatures, melting ice and rising seas
> as the world warms may strike some as overstated, scientists now
> wonder whether they might actually be understated.
>
> "Feedback" mechanisms
>
> In particular, climate models that did not foresee Greenland's rapid
> changes might not fully recognize "feedback" mechanisms where warming
> drives changes that, in turn, drive even more rapid warming.
>
> "I think they're too conservative," Bindschadler said. "I have no
> doubt that sea level will rise, and it will probably rise at an
> increasing rate."
>
> Though climate models project melting of ice, they have a tougher time
> foreseeing changes in the way the ice moves -- something scientists
> still do not clearly understand, but which is turning out to be a
> dominant means of delivering ice to the sea.
>
> Those forces within ice operate on such small scales, they remain out
> of focus of the global climate models that provide most forecasts of
> climate change.
>
> "There's no way they can get it right," Hulbe said.
>
> Greenland's ice is vulnerable to warming for some of the same reasons
> that glaciers on Mount Hood and throughout the Cascades are
> vulnerable. Both lie in climates mild enough that only slight warming
> can rapidly speed their disintegration.
>
> The difference is that Greenland contains thousands of times more ice,
> and though melting of Cascade glaciers affects the Northwest, the
> melting of Greenland affects the world.
>
> It's clear that the climate has changed radically and rapidly in the
> past, with Greenland at the center of that change. Climate records
> suggest that modern humans have lived in a period of climatic calm and
> that wild swings in climate -- even without [being made worse by]
> human-driven climate change -- are much more the rule than the
> exception.
>
> "Everyone around the world could experience abrupt climate change in
> the future," said Ed Brook, a professor at Oregon State University who
> examines ice cores from Greenland that reveal how the climate has
> behaved in the past. "We don't really know why they happen, but we
> know that Greenland is where they happen."
>
> Irreversible slide?
>
> A central question is whether warming has already pushed Greenland
> into an irreversible slide that will change the world, as it has
> before.
>
> Greenland, about three times the size of Texas, strongly affects the
> world's climate. The Nazis, recognizing that influence, installed
> secret weather stations along its coast during World War II that U.S.
> troops worked feverishly to destroy.
>
> Researchers now believe the influence reaches as far as the Pacific
> Northwest, and will probably alter Northwest weather as ice covering
> the ocean around Greenland melts away. That ice is also shrinking
> faster than models predicted, setting off a rush by nearby nations to
> claim rights to possible oil reserves below.
>
> More Arctic sea ice melted this summer than ever before recorded, and
> many suspect it will disappear entirely by midcentury.
>
> The melting removes an insulating blanket from the ocean surface,
> releasing warmth from the water into the cold air above as towering
> columns of warmer air.
>
> Those columns appear to reorient global air flows the way a boulder
> falling into a stream reorients the current, said Jacob Sewall, a
> professor of geosciences at Virginia Tech, who has used atmospheric
> models to study the effect. The result is that the stream that carries
> storms over the West Coast of North America shifts north, turning much
> of California drier, and the Northwest wetter.
>
> "Instead of hitting near San Francisco, they'll be pushed to the north
> and come in over Oregon," Sewall said. "The ice changes we're seeing
> now appear to be following this pattern. We're already seeing some of
> these precipitation shifts in western North America."
>
> It signals how what might seem like a subtle change as far away as
> Greenland makes a difference in Oregon.
>
> "It's not just that the polar bears no longer have ice," Sewall said.
> "This can have a far-field effect as well."
>
> Michael Milstein: 503-294-7689; michaelmilstein@ news.oregonian.com
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1189232816204570.xml&coll=7
>
> =============
>
> DON'T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION:
>
> http://www.earthshare.org/get_involved/involved.html
> http://www.greenhousenet.org/
> http://www.solarcatalyst.com/
> http://www.campaignearth.org/buy_green_nativeenergy.asp
>
> Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org
> =============
>
> = = = =
> STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
> IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
> = = = =
> Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
> More news: UseNet's misc.activism.progressive (moderated)
> = = = =
> Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
> For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
> And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
>
> ** Email Note: "info" and "map" etc DON'T work. Now:
> econdemocracy(at)gmail
>


Jerry Okamura
2007-09-10 21:03:19 EST

"Mirelle" <mirellelafleur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189404753.794581.110840@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern times,
>> approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later this century.
>> Greenland is a question mark that, if its ice continues the rush
>> seaward, could push the seas even higher, even faster."
>
>
> As the ice melts it exposes Perma Frost.
> Perma Frost, exelerates global warming alarmingly.
> It has not been calculated in the future projections of climate
> change.
> Making all projections, too conservative.
> Perma Frost, emits gasses that are full of carbon monoxide. Some
> scientists are saying the exposed Perma Frost creates as much carbon
> monoxide as all the gasoline vehicles combined.
> The is nothing more important than concentrating on the environment.
> If this were the case all other problems such as war, and exploitation
> of people and resources, would also have to be dealt with--by non-
> violent resolution.
> For humans will see that the way of life..dominator/aggressor has been
> disaterous.
> A fundamental drastic change must happen, or we will not survive this
> annhilation/matricide.
>
We will not survive "if" a large object from space hits this earth either.
We definitely will not survive "when" the sun dies.


Rick Merrill
2007-09-11 21:09:57 EST
Jerry Okamura wrote:
> I would think that scientist should be able to easily figure out what
> the maximum rise in sea levels would be. All you would need to know is
> how much snow and ice exists. "If" all of that melts, that would tell
> you the maximum rise in sea levels, substracting that water that would
> never reach the sea.

Remember it is only ice that is now supported by LAND that will raise
sea level. Ice that floats has already displaced its weight.



Jerry Okamura
2007-09-12 14:58:00 EST

"Rick Merrill" <rick0.merrill@NOSPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:x72dnYHa_O_7oXrbnZ2dnUVZ_s7inZ2d@comcast.com...
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> I would think that scientist should be able to easily figure out what the
>> maximum rise in sea levels would be. All you would need to know is how
>> much snow and ice exists. "If" all of that melts, that would tell you
>> the maximum rise in sea levels, substracting that water that would never
>> reach the sea.
>
> Remember it is only ice that is now supported by LAND that will raise sea
> level. Ice that floats has already displaced its weight.
>
>

Well, first of all there is a "lot" of ice and snow on land. So my position
stands, scientist "should be" able to tell us what the maximum sea level
rise will be.


Bert Hyman
2007-09-12 15:03:38 EST
e*y@gmail.com (EconomicDemocracy Coop) wrote in
news:1189387046.954559.233770@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern
> times, approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later
> this century. > ...

If their predictions were that far off, it suggests that their
climate models aren't worth very much.

What else are they wrong about?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

* US *
2007-09-12 15:35:33 EST
On 12 Sep 2007 19:03:38 GMT, Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

>*y@gmail.com (EconomicDemocracy Coop) wrote in news:1189387046.954559.233770@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>> "Offshore, the sea level is rising faster than ever in modern
>> times, approaching speeds scientists did not expect until later
>> this century. > ...
>
>If their predictions were that far off, it suggests that their
>climate models aren't worth very much.

You don't have any idea why that's a non sequitur, do you.

>What else are they wrong about?

What have you ever been right about?
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