Activism Discussion: Re: The Wrong Kind Of Black Student?

Re: The Wrong Kind Of Black Student?
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Orenthal J. Whippacoon
2005-03-28 18:13:21 EST
"futureworlds" <nobody@mail.futureworlds.it> wrote in message
news:3ba6b9d14e6630bac2a95a72c003d125@mail.futureworlds.it...
> Wall St Journal
> Best of the Web
> http://snipurl.com/7c6j
>
> America's elite colleges have made Herculean efforts to enroll
> black students, but now some proponents of racial preferences
> are complaining that they're admitting the wrong blacks, the New
> York Times reports from Cambridge, Mass.:
>
> "While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's
> undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law
> professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's
> African and African-American studies department, pointed out
> that the majority of them--perhaps as many as two-thirds--were
> West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a
> lesser extent, children of biracial couples.

That's because American blacks, used to having everything handed to them,
are still waiting for forty acres and mule, not to mention "reparations for
slavery."


Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?

By SARA RIMER and KAREN W. ARENSON

AMBRIDGE, Mass. - At the most recent reunion of Harvard University's black
alumni, there was lots of pleased talk about the increase in the number of
black students at Harvard.

But the celebratory mood was broken in one forum, when some speakers brought
up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students were.

While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black,
Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the
chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department,
pointed out that the majority of them - perhaps as many as two-thirds - were
West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent,
children of biracial couples.

They said that only about a third of the students were from families in
which all four grandparents were born in this country, descendants of
slaves. Many argue that it was students like these, disadvantaged by the
legacy of Jim Crow laws, segregation and decades of racism, poverty and
inferior schools, who were intended as principal beneficiaries of
affirmative action in university admissions.

What concerned the two professors, they said, was that in the high-stakes
world of admissions to the most selective colleges - and with it, entry into
the country's inner circles of power, wealth and influence -
African-American students whose families have been in America for
generations were being left behind.

"I just want people to be honest enough to talk about it," Professor Gates,
the Yale-educated son of a West Virginia paper-mill worker, said recently,
reiterating the questions he has been raising since the black alumni weekend
last fall. "What are the implications of this?"

Both Professor Gates and Professor Guinier emphasize that this is not about
excluding immigrants, whom sociologists describe as a highly motivated,
self-selected group. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the United States
population, are still underrepresented at Harvard and other selective
colleges, they said.

The conversation that bubbled up that weekend has continued across campus
here and beyond as these professors and others publicly raise painful and
complicated questions about race and class and how they play out in elite
university admissions, issues that some educators and black admissions
officers have privately talked about for some time.

There is no consensus on the answers, and since most institutions say they
do not look into the origins of their black students, the absence of hard
data makes the discussion even more difficult.

Some educators, including the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers,
declined to comment on the issue; others are divided.

The president of Amherst College, Anthony W. Marx, says that colleges should
care about the ethnicity of black students because in overlooking those with
predominantly American roots, colleges are missing an "opportunity to
correct a past injustice" and depriving their campuses "of voices that are
particular to being African-American, with all the historical disadvantages
that that entails."

But others say there is no reason to take the ancestry of black students
into account.

"I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher
education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University, who
as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of
affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices. It
matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that
differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action."

Professors Gates and Guinier cite various sources for their figures about
Harvard's black students, including conversations with administrators and
students, a recent Harvard undergraduate honors thesis based on extensive
student interviews, and the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," which surveyed
70 percent of the black undergraduates and was published last year by the
Harvard Black Students Association.

Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania who
have been studying the achievement of minority students at 28 selective
colleges and universities (including theirs, as well as Yale, Columbia, Duke
and the University of California at Berkeley), found that 41 percent of the
black students identified themselves as immigrants, as children of
immigrants or as mixed race.

Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton sociology professor who was one of the
researchers, said the black students from immigrant families and the
mixed-race students represented a larger proportion of the black students
than that in the black population in the United States generally. Andrew A.
Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College, says that among 18- to
25-year-old blacks nationwide, about 9 percent describe themselves as of
African or West Indian ancestry. Like the Gates and Guinier numbers, these
tallies do not include foreign students.

In the 40 or so years since affirmative action began in higher education,
the focus has been on increasing the numbers of black students at selective
colleges, not on their family background. Professor Massey said that the
admissions officials he talked to at these colleges seemed surprised by the
findings about the black students. "They really didn't have a good idea of
what they're getting," he said.

But few black students are surprised. Sheila Adams, a Harvard senior, was
born in the South Bronx to a school security officer and a subway token
seller, and her family has been in this country for generations. Ms. Adams
said there were so few black students like her at Harvard that they had
taken to referring to themselves as "the descendants."

The subject, however, remains taboo among some college administrators.
Anthony Carnevale, a former vice president at the Educational Testing
Service, which develops SAT tests, said colleges were happy to the take
high-performing black students from immigrant families.

"They've found an easy way out," Mr. Carnevale said. "The truth is, the
higher-education community is no longer connected to the civil rights
movement. These immigrants represent Horatio Alger, not Brown v. Board of
Education and America's race history."

Almost from its inception, following the civil rights struggles of the
1960's, affirmative action has been attacked and redefined. In its 1978
Bakke decision, the Supreme Court shifted the rationale away from issues of
social justice to the educational value of diversity.

One black admissions official at a highly selective college said the
reluctance of college officials to discuss these issues has helped obscure
the scarcity of black students whose families have been in this country for
generations.

"If somebody does not start paying attention to those who are not able to
make it in, they're going to start drifting farther and farther behind,"
said the official, who declined to be identified because the subject is so
charged. "You've got to say that the long-term blacks were either dealt a
crooked hand, or something is innately wrong with them. And I simply won't
accept that there is something wrong with them."

Mary C. Waters, the chairman of the sociology department at Harvard, who has
studied West Indian immigrants, says they are initially more successful than
many African-Americans for a number of reasons. Since they come from
majority-black countries, they are less psychologically handicapped by the
stigma of race. In addition, many arrive with higher levels of education and
professional experience. And at first, they encounter less discrimination.

"You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of affirmative
action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at
Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500
years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing
well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans
from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing well,
either."

Even among black scholars there is disagreement on whether a discussion
about the origins of black students is helpful. Orlando Patterson, a Harvard
sociologist and West Indian native, said he wished others would "let
sleeping dogs lie."

"The doors are wide open - as wide open as they ever will be - for
native-born black middle-class kids to enter elite colleges," he wrote in an
e-mail message.

There is also wide disagreement about what, if anything, should be done
about the underrepresentation of African-American students whose families
have been here for generations. Even Professor Gates, who can trace his
ancestry back to slaves, and Professor Guinier, whose mother is white and
whose father immigrated from Jamaica, emphasize different ideas.

"This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black indigenous
middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study
group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we
can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American
community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense of
purpose and values which produced our generation."

In Professor Guinier's view, there are plenty of other blacks who could also
succeed at elite colleges, but the institutions are not doing enough to find
them. She said they were overly reliant on measures like SAT scores, which
correlate strongly with family wealth and parental education.

"Colleges and universities are defaulting on their obligation to train and
educate a representative group of future leaders," said Professor Guinier, a
Harvard graduate herself who has been studying college admissions practices
for more than a decade. "And they are excluding poor and working-class
whites, not just descendants of slaves."

Harvard admissions officials say that they, too, are concerned about
attracting more lower-income students of all races. They plan to spend an
additional $300,000 to $375,000 a year to recruit more low-income students
and provide more financial aid to these students.

"This increases the chances that we will be able to reach into the
communities that have not been reached," said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean
of admissions and financial aid.

While Harvard officials ignore the ethnic distinctions among their black
students, Harvard's black undergraduates are developing a body of literature
in the form of student research papers.

Aisha Haynie, the undergraduate whose senior thesis Professor Guinier cited,
said her research was prompted by the reaction from her black classmates
when she told them that she was not from the West Indies or Africa, but from
the Carolinas. "They would say, 'No, where are you really from?' " said Ms.
Haynie, 26, who earned a master's degree in public policy at Princeton and
is now in medical school.

Marques J. Redd, a 20-year-old from Macon, Ga., who graduated in June and
was one of the editors of Harvard's black student guide, said that Harvard
officials had discouraged them from collecting the data on who the black
students were.

"But we thought it was one aspect of the black experience at Harvard that
should be documented," he said. "The knowledge had power. It was something
that needed to be out in the open instead of something that people whispered
about."



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/education/24AFFI.final.html?ei=5007&en=92df04e0957d73d3&ex=1403409600&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all



Voice Of Reason <>
2005-03-28 21:00:46 EST

So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.


On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:13:21 -0800, "Orenthal J. Whippacoon"
<*m@nospam.edu> wrote:

>"futureworlds" <nobody@mail.futureworlds.it> wrote in message
>news:3ba6b9d14e6630bac2a95a72c003d125@mail.futureworlds.it...
>> Wall St Journal
>> Best of the Web
>> http://snipurl.com/7c6j
>>
>> America's elite colleges have made Herculean efforts to enroll
>> black students, but now some proponents of racial preferences
>> are complaining that they're admitting the wrong blacks, the New
>> York Times reports from Cambridge, Mass.:
>>
>> "While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's
>> undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law
>> professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's
>> African and African-American studies department, pointed out
>> that the majority of them--perhaps as many as two-thirds--were
>> West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a
>> lesser extent, children of biracial couples.
>
>That's because American blacks, used to having everything handed to them,
>are still waiting for forty acres and mule, not to mention "reparations for
>slavery."
>
>
>Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?
>
>By SARA RIMER and KAREN W. ARENSON
>
>AMBRIDGE, Mass. - At the most recent reunion of Harvard University's black
>alumni, there was lots of pleased talk about the increase in the number of
>black students at Harvard.
>
>But the celebratory mood was broken in one forum, when some speakers brought
>up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students were.
>
>While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black,
>Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the
>chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department,
>pointed out that the majority of them - perhaps as many as two-thirds - were
>West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent,
>children of biracial couples.
>
>They said that only about a third of the students were from families in
>which all four grandparents were born in this country, descendants of
>slaves. Many argue that it was students like these, disadvantaged by the
>legacy of Jim Crow laws, segregation and decades of racism, poverty and
>inferior schools, who were intended as principal beneficiaries of
>affirmative action in university admissions.
>
>What concerned the two professors, they said, was that in the high-stakes
>world of admissions to the most selective colleges - and with it, entry into
>the country's inner circles of power, wealth and influence -
>African-American students whose families have been in America for
>generations were being left behind.
>
>"I just want people to be honest enough to talk about it," Professor Gates,
>the Yale-educated son of a West Virginia paper-mill worker, said recently,
>reiterating the questions he has been raising since the black alumni weekend
>last fall. "What are the implications of this?"
>
>Both Professor Gates and Professor Guinier emphasize that this is not about
>excluding immigrants, whom sociologists describe as a highly motivated,
>self-selected group. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the United States
>population, are still underrepresented at Harvard and other selective
>colleges, they said.
>
>The conversation that bubbled up that weekend has continued across campus
>here and beyond as these professors and others publicly raise painful and
>complicated questions about race and class and how they play out in elite
>university admissions, issues that some educators and black admissions
>officers have privately talked about for some time.
>
>There is no consensus on the answers, and since most institutions say they
>do not look into the origins of their black students, the absence of hard
>data makes the discussion even more difficult.
>
>Some educators, including the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers,
>declined to comment on the issue; others are divided.
>
>The president of Amherst College, Anthony W. Marx, says that colleges should
>care about the ethnicity of black students because in overlooking those with
>predominantly American roots, colleges are missing an "opportunity to
>correct a past injustice" and depriving their campuses "of voices that are
>particular to being African-American, with all the historical disadvantages
>that that entails."
>
>But others say there is no reason to take the ancestry of black students
>into account.
>
>"I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher
>education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University, who
>as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of
>affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices. It
>matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that
>differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action."
>
>Professors Gates and Guinier cite various sources for their figures about
>Harvard's black students, including conversations with administrators and
>students, a recent Harvard undergraduate honors thesis based on extensive
>student interviews, and the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," which surveyed
>70 percent of the black undergraduates and was published last year by the
>Harvard Black Students Association.
>
>Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania who
>have been studying the achievement of minority students at 28 selective
>colleges and universities (including theirs, as well as Yale, Columbia, Duke
>and the University of California at Berkeley), found that 41 percent of the
>black students identified themselves as immigrants, as children of
>immigrants or as mixed race.
>
>Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton sociology professor who was one of the
>researchers, said the black students from immigrant families and the
>mixed-race students represented a larger proportion of the black students
>than that in the black population in the United States generally. Andrew A.
>Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College, says that among 18- to
>25-year-old blacks nationwide, about 9 percent describe themselves as of
>African or West Indian ancestry. Like the Gates and Guinier numbers, these
>tallies do not include foreign students.
>
>In the 40 or so years since affirmative action began in higher education,
>the focus has been on increasing the numbers of black students at selective
>colleges, not on their family background. Professor Massey said that the
>admissions officials he talked to at these colleges seemed surprised by the
>findings about the black students. "They really didn't have a good idea of
>what they're getting," he said.
>
>But few black students are surprised. Sheila Adams, a Harvard senior, was
>born in the South Bronx to a school security officer and a subway token
>seller, and her family has been in this country for generations. Ms. Adams
>said there were so few black students like her at Harvard that they had
>taken to referring to themselves as "the descendants."
>
>The subject, however, remains taboo among some college administrators.
>Anthony Carnevale, a former vice president at the Educational Testing
>Service, which develops SAT tests, said colleges were happy to the take
>high-performing black students from immigrant families.
>
>"They've found an easy way out," Mr. Carnevale said. "The truth is, the
>higher-education community is no longer connected to the civil rights
>movement. These immigrants represent Horatio Alger, not Brown v. Board of
>Education and America's race history."
>
>Almost from its inception, following the civil rights struggles of the
>1960's, affirmative action has been attacked and redefined. In its 1978
>Bakke decision, the Supreme Court shifted the rationale away from issues of
>social justice to the educational value of diversity.
>
>One black admissions official at a highly selective college said the
>reluctance of college officials to discuss these issues has helped obscure
>the scarcity of black students whose families have been in this country for
>generations.
>
>"If somebody does not start paying attention to those who are not able to
>make it in, they're going to start drifting farther and farther behind,"
>said the official, who declined to be identified because the subject is so
>charged. "You've got to say that the long-term blacks were either dealt a
>crooked hand, or something is innately wrong with them. And I simply won't
>accept that there is something wrong with them."
>
>Mary C. Waters, the chairman of the sociology department at Harvard, who has
>studied West Indian immigrants, says they are initially more successful than
>many African-Americans for a number of reasons. Since they come from
>majority-black countries, they are less psychologically handicapped by the
>stigma of race. In addition, many arrive with higher levels of education and
>professional experience. And at first, they encounter less discrimination.
>
>"You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of affirmative
>action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at
>Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500
>years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing
>well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans
>from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing well,
>either."
>
>Even among black scholars there is disagreement on whether a discussion
>about the origins of black students is helpful. Orlando Patterson, a Harvard
>sociologist and West Indian native, said he wished others would "let
>sleeping dogs lie."
>
>"The doors are wide open - as wide open as they ever will be - for
>native-born black middle-class kids to enter elite colleges," he wrote in an
>e-mail message.
>
>There is also wide disagreement about what, if anything, should be done
>about the underrepresentation of African-American students whose families
>have been here for generations. Even Professor Gates, who can trace his
>ancestry back to slaves, and Professor Guinier, whose mother is white and
>whose father immigrated from Jamaica, emphasize different ideas.
>
>"This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black indigenous
>middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study
>group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we
>can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American
>community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense of
>purpose and values which produced our generation."
>
>In Professor Guinier's view, there are plenty of other blacks who could also
>succeed at elite colleges, but the institutions are not doing enough to find
>them. She said they were overly reliant on measures like SAT scores, which
>correlate strongly with family wealth and parental education.
>
>"Colleges and universities are defaulting on their obligation to train and
>educate a representative group of future leaders," said Professor Guinier, a
>Harvard graduate herself who has been studying college admissions practices
>for more than a decade. "And they are excluding poor and working-class
>whites, not just descendants of slaves."
>
>Harvard admissions officials say that they, too, are concerned about
>attracting more lower-income students of all races. They plan to spend an
>additional $300,000 to $375,000 a year to recruit more low-income students
>and provide more financial aid to these students.
>
>"This increases the chances that we will be able to reach into the
>communities that have not been reached," said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean
>of admissions and financial aid.
>
>While Harvard officials ignore the ethnic distinctions among their black
>students, Harvard's black undergraduates are developing a body of literature
>in the form of student research papers.
>
>Aisha Haynie, the undergraduate whose senior thesis Professor Guinier cited,
>said her research was prompted by the reaction from her black classmates
>when she told them that she was not from the West Indies or Africa, but from
>the Carolinas. "They would say, 'No, where are you really from?' " said Ms.
>Haynie, 26, who earned a master's degree in public policy at Princeton and
>is now in medical school.
>
>Marques J. Redd, a 20-year-old from Macon, Ga., who graduated in June and
>was one of the editors of Harvard's black student guide, said that Harvard
>officials had discouraged them from collecting the data on who the black
>students were.
>
>"But we thought it was one aspect of the black experience at Harvard that
>should be documented," he said. "The knowledge had power. It was something
>that needed to be out in the open instead of something that people whispered
>about."
>
>
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/education/24AFFI.final.html?ei=5007&en=92df04e0957d73d3&ex=1403409600&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all
>


K*@yahoo.com
2005-03-29 06:57:25 EST
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:00:46 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:

>
>So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
>African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.

Ever heard of "divide et impere"?

K.

Guest
2005-03-29 09:44:44 EST
To me, there is no debate about it. If you are not a descendent of slaves
in America, then you are not an African-American. Maybe we need a new
category? Maybe the white man should start accepting us as just Americans
for once. After all, we have been here longer than anyone else, including
all of these 'Johnny-come-lately whites who's names you cannot even
pronounce!

--
www.unclet.netfirms.com
<Voice Of Reason> wrote in message
news:hkdh4118rg1vtrt02qvh2ejs7oo5tn6pj7@4ax.com...
>
> So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
> African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:13:21 -0800, "Orenthal J. Whippacoon"
> <nospam@nospam.edu> wrote:
>
>>"futureworlds" <nobody@mail.futureworlds.it> wrote in message
>>news:3ba6b9d14e6630bac2a95a72c003d125@mail.futureworlds.it...
>>> Wall St Journal
>>> Best of the Web
>>> http://snipurl.com/7c6j
>>>
>>> America's elite colleges have made Herculean efforts to enroll
>>> black students, but now some proponents of racial preferences
>>> are complaining that they're admitting the wrong blacks, the New
>>> York Times reports from Cambridge, Mass.:
>>>
>>> "While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's
>>> undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law
>>> professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's
>>> African and African-American studies department, pointed out
>>> that the majority of them--perhaps as many as two-thirds--were
>>> West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a
>>> lesser extent, children of biracial couples.
>>
>>That's because American blacks, used to having everything handed to them,
>>are still waiting for forty acres and mule, not to mention "reparations
>>for
>>slavery."
>>
>>
>>Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?
>>
>>By SARA RIMER and KAREN W. ARENSON
>>
>>AMBRIDGE, Mass. - At the most recent reunion of Harvard University's black
>>alumni, there was lots of pleased talk about the increase in the number of
>>black students at Harvard.
>>
>>But the celebratory mood was broken in one forum, when some speakers
>>brought
>>up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students were.
>>
>>While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were
>>black,
>>Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the
>>chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department,
>>pointed out that the majority of them - perhaps as many as two-thirds -
>>were
>>West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser
>>extent,
>>children of biracial couples.
>>
>>They said that only about a third of the students were from families in
>>which all four grandparents were born in this country, descendants of
>>slaves. Many argue that it was students like these, disadvantaged by the
>>legacy of Jim Crow laws, segregation and decades of racism, poverty and
>>inferior schools, who were intended as principal beneficiaries of
>>affirmative action in university admissions.
>>
>>What concerned the two professors, they said, was that in the high-stakes
>>world of admissions to the most selective colleges - and with it, entry
>>into
>>the country's inner circles of power, wealth and influence -
>>African-American students whose families have been in America for
>>generations were being left behind.
>>
>>"I just want people to be honest enough to talk about it," Professor
>>Gates,
>>the Yale-educated son of a West Virginia paper-mill worker, said recently,
>>reiterating the questions he has been raising since the black alumni
>>weekend
>>last fall. "What are the implications of this?"
>>
>>Both Professor Gates and Professor Guinier emphasize that this is not
>>about
>>excluding immigrants, whom sociologists describe as a highly motivated,
>>self-selected group. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the United States
>>population, are still underrepresented at Harvard and other selective
>>colleges, they said.
>>
>>The conversation that bubbled up that weekend has continued across campus
>>here and beyond as these professors and others publicly raise painful and
>>complicated questions about race and class and how they play out in elite
>>university admissions, issues that some educators and black admissions
>>officers have privately talked about for some time.
>>
>>There is no consensus on the answers, and since most institutions say they
>>do not look into the origins of their black students, the absence of hard
>>data makes the discussion even more difficult.
>>
>>Some educators, including the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers,
>>declined to comment on the issue; others are divided.
>>
>>The president of Amherst College, Anthony W. Marx, says that colleges
>>should
>>care about the ethnicity of black students because in overlooking those
>>with
>>predominantly American roots, colleges are missing an "opportunity to
>>correct a past injustice" and depriving their campuses "of voices that are
>>particular to being African-American, with all the historical
>>disadvantages
>>that that entails."
>>
>>But others say there is no reason to take the ancestry of black students
>>into account.
>>
>>"I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher
>>education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University,
>>who
>>as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of
>>affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices. It
>>matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that
>>differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action."
>>
>>Professors Gates and Guinier cite various sources for their figures about
>>Harvard's black students, including conversations with administrators and
>>students, a recent Harvard undergraduate honors thesis based on extensive
>>student interviews, and the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," which
>>surveyed
>>70 percent of the black undergraduates and was published last year by the
>>Harvard Black Students Association.
>>
>>Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania who
>>have been studying the achievement of minority students at 28 selective
>>colleges and universities (including theirs, as well as Yale, Columbia,
>>Duke
>>and the University of California at Berkeley), found that 41 percent of
>>the
>>black students identified themselves as immigrants, as children of
>>immigrants or as mixed race.
>>
>>Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton sociology professor who was one of the
>>researchers, said the black students from immigrant families and the
>>mixed-race students represented a larger proportion of the black students
>>than that in the black population in the United States generally. Andrew
>>A.
>>Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College, says that among 18- to
>>25-year-old blacks nationwide, about 9 percent describe themselves as of
>>African or West Indian ancestry. Like the Gates and Guinier numbers, these
>>tallies do not include foreign students.
>>
>>In the 40 or so years since affirmative action began in higher education,
>>the focus has been on increasing the numbers of black students at
>>selective
>>colleges, not on their family background. Professor Massey said that the
>>admissions officials he talked to at these colleges seemed surprised by
>>the
>>findings about the black students. "They really didn't have a good idea of
>>what they're getting," he said.
>>
>>But few black students are surprised. Sheila Adams, a Harvard senior, was
>>born in the South Bronx to a school security officer and a subway token
>>seller, and her family has been in this country for generations. Ms. Adams
>>said there were so few black students like her at Harvard that they had
>>taken to referring to themselves as "the descendants."
>>
>>The subject, however, remains taboo among some college administrators.
>>Anthony Carnevale, a former vice president at the Educational Testing
>>Service, which develops SAT tests, said colleges were happy to the take
>>high-performing black students from immigrant families.
>>
>>"They've found an easy way out," Mr. Carnevale said. "The truth is, the
>>higher-education community is no longer connected to the civil rights
>>movement. These immigrants represent Horatio Alger, not Brown v. Board of
>>Education and America's race history."
>>
>>Almost from its inception, following the civil rights struggles of the
>>1960's, affirmative action has been attacked and redefined. In its 1978
>>Bakke decision, the Supreme Court shifted the rationale away from issues
>>of
>>social justice to the educational value of diversity.
>>
>>One black admissions official at a highly selective college said the
>>reluctance of college officials to discuss these issues has helped obscure
>>the scarcity of black students whose families have been in this country
>>for
>>generations.
>>
>>"If somebody does not start paying attention to those who are not able to
>>make it in, they're going to start drifting farther and farther behind,"
>>said the official, who declined to be identified because the subject is so
>>charged. "You've got to say that the long-term blacks were either dealt a
>>crooked hand, or something is innately wrong with them. And I simply won't
>>accept that there is something wrong with them."
>>
>>Mary C. Waters, the chairman of the sociology department at Harvard, who
>>has
>>studied West Indian immigrants, says they are initially more successful
>>than
>>many African-Americans for a number of reasons. Since they come from
>>majority-black countries, they are less psychologically handicapped by the
>>stigma of race. In addition, many arrive with higher levels of education
>>and
>>professional experience. And at first, they encounter less discrimination.
>>
>>"You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of
>>affirmative
>>action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at
>>Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500
>>years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing
>>well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans
>>from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing
>>well,
>>either."
>>
>>Even among black scholars there is disagreement on whether a discussion
>>about the origins of black students is helpful. Orlando Patterson, a
>>Harvard
>>sociologist and West Indian native, said he wished others would "let
>>sleeping dogs lie."
>>
>>"The doors are wide open - as wide open as they ever will be - for
>>native-born black middle-class kids to enter elite colleges," he wrote in
>>an
>>e-mail message.
>>
>>There is also wide disagreement about what, if anything, should be done
>>about the underrepresentation of African-American students whose families
>>have been here for generations. Even Professor Gates, who can trace his
>>ancestry back to slaves, and Professor Guinier, whose mother is white and
>>whose father immigrated from Jamaica, emphasize different ideas.
>>
>>"This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black
>>indigenous
>>middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study
>>group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so
>>we
>>can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American
>>community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense
>>of
>>purpose and values which produced our generation."
>>
>>In Professor Guinier's view, there are plenty of other blacks who could
>>also
>>succeed at elite colleges, but the institutions are not doing enough to
>>find
>>them. She said they were overly reliant on measures like SAT scores, which
>>correlate strongly with family wealth and parental education.
>>
>>"Colleges and universities are defaulting on their obligation to train and
>>educate a representative group of future leaders," said Professor Guinier,
>>a
>>Harvard graduate herself who has been studying college admissions
>>practices
>>for more than a decade. "And they are excluding poor and working-class
>>whites, not just descendants of slaves."
>>
>>Harvard admissions officials say that they, too, are concerned about
>>attracting more lower-income students of all races. They plan to spend an
>>additional $300,000 to $375,000 a year to recruit more low-income students
>>and provide more financial aid to these students.
>>
>>"This increases the chances that we will be able to reach into the
>>communities that have not been reached," said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean
>>of admissions and financial aid.
>>
>>While Harvard officials ignore the ethnic distinctions among their black
>>students, Harvard's black undergraduates are developing a body of
>>literature
>>in the form of student research papers.
>>
>>Aisha Haynie, the undergraduate whose senior thesis Professor Guinier
>>cited,
>>said her research was prompted by the reaction from her black classmates
>>when she told them that she was not from the West Indies or Africa, but
>>from
>>the Carolinas. "They would say, 'No, where are you really from?' " said
>>Ms.
>>Haynie, 26, who earned a master's degree in public policy at Princeton and
>>is now in medical school.
>>
>>Marques J. Redd, a 20-year-old from Macon, Ga., who graduated in June and
>>was one of the editors of Harvard's black student guide, said that Harvard
>>officials had discouraged them from collecting the data on who the black
>>students were.
>>
>>"But we thought it was one aspect of the black experience at Harvard that
>>should be documented," he said. "The knowledge had power. It was something
>>that needed to be out in the open instead of something that people
>>whispered
>>about."
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/education/24AFFI.final.html?ei=5007&en=92df04e0957d73d3&ex=1403409600&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all
>>
>



Way Back Jack
2005-03-29 10:54:27 EST
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:44:44 GMT, "Guest" <n0gar@hotmail.com> wrote:

>To me, there is no debate about it. If you are not a descendent of slaves
>in America, then you are not an African-American. Maybe we need a new
>category? Maybe the white man should start accepting us as just Americans
>for once. After all, we have been here longer than anyone else, including
>all of these 'Johnny-come-lately whites who's names you cannot even
>pronounce!

You mean the whites from whom your amoral ilk demands reparations?

Voice Of Reason <>
2005-03-29 21:09:40 EST
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:57:25 -0500, kafouREMOVE@yahoo.com wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:00:46 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>
>>
>>So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
>>African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.
>
>Ever heard of "divide et impere"?

Ever hear of staying focused? You *are* welcome to make a
contribution to this debate.

Speaking of which, do YOU consider yourself an African-American?
Or a Haitian-American? Or a Caribbean-American? Or
Carib-Afro-American? Or just plain old black man?




Mr. Snoopy
2005-03-29 21:37:24 EST
Did you ever hear of "lowering standards and affirmative aktion"?

<*E@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ljgi415css4h0gt7adfl7kq0ubkgmq5a10@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:00:46 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>
>>
>>So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
>>African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.
>
> Ever heard of "divide et impere"?
>
> K.



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Mr. Snoopy
2005-03-29 21:43:06 EST
Whichever gets him the biggest handout in life works best for him..

But he will still bitch "it beez racism" Iz gots only a 400SE Mercedes" and
mah whites neighbor be getting a 500SE. So da whites man be keepin me down
with mah +100K a year job with only a BS degree.

He needs to be darn appreciative of what he has in life and stop blaming the
white man for this horrible country he has to live in... of course Haiti is
a role-model place of Black rule (after they murdered all the French Whites
in 1700's)

What a complete joke this asshole is...Iz be up on dis, word up Kafool.


<Voice Of Reason> wrote in message
news:le2k4192kmvshcv9useg3i7gir5fgcprqv@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:57:25 -0500, kafouREMOVE@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:00:46 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
>>>African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.
>>
>>Ever heard of "divide et impere"?
>
> Ever hear of staying focused? You *are* welcome to make a
> contribution to this debate.
>
> Speaking of which, do YOU consider yourself an African-American?
> Or a Haitian-American? Or a Caribbean-American? Or
> Carib-Afro-American? Or just plain old black man?
>
>
>



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Mr. Snoopy
2005-03-29 21:44:06 EST
Well if thats the case, then away with all those special programs designed
for African-American only..

Do you agree?

"Guest" <n0gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wRd2e.26521$hU7.16575@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> To me, there is no debate about it. If you are not a descendent of slaves
> in America, then you are not an African-American. Maybe we need a new
> category? Maybe the white man should start accepting us as just Americans
> for once. After all, we have been here longer than anyone else, including
> all of these 'Johnny-come-lately whites who's names you cannot even
> pronounce!
>
> --
> www.unclet.netfirms.com
> <Voice Of Reason> wrote in message
> news:hkdh4118rg1vtrt02qvh2ejs7oo5tn6pj7@4ax.com...
>>
>> So, it looks like we're going to be stuck on the "Who Is An
>> African-American" debate for a long time. A very long time.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:13:21 -0800, "Orenthal J. Whippacoon"
>> <nospam@nospam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>"futureworlds" <nobody@mail.futureworlds.it> wrote in message
>>>news:3ba6b9d14e6630bac2a95a72c003d125@mail.futureworlds.it...
>>>> Wall St Journal
>>>> Best of the Web
>>>> http://snipurl.com/7c6j
>>>>
>>>> America's elite colleges have made Herculean efforts to enroll
>>>> black students, but now some proponents of racial preferences
>>>> are complaining that they're admitting the wrong blacks, the New
>>>> York Times reports from Cambridge, Mass.:
>>>>
>>>> "While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's
>>>> undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law
>>>> professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's
>>>> African and African-American studies department, pointed out
>>>> that the majority of them--perhaps as many as two-thirds--were
>>>> West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a
>>>> lesser extent, children of biracial couples.
>>>
>>>That's because American blacks, used to having everything handed to them,
>>>are still waiting for forty acres and mule, not to mention "reparations
>>>for
>>>slavery."
>>>
>>>
>>>Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?
>>>
>>>By SARA RIMER and KAREN W. ARENSON
>>>
>>>AMBRIDGE, Mass. - At the most recent reunion of Harvard University's
>>>black
>>>alumni, there was lots of pleased talk about the increase in the number
>>>of
>>>black students at Harvard.
>>>
>>>But the celebratory mood was broken in one forum, when some speakers
>>>brought
>>>up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students were.
>>>
>>>While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were
>>>black,
>>>Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the
>>>chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department,
>>>pointed out that the majority of them - perhaps as many as two-thirds -
>>>were
>>>West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser
>>>extent,
>>>children of biracial couples.
>>>
>>>They said that only about a third of the students were from families in
>>>which all four grandparents were born in this country, descendants of
>>>slaves. Many argue that it was students like these, disadvantaged by the
>>>legacy of Jim Crow laws, segregation and decades of racism, poverty and
>>>inferior schools, who were intended as principal beneficiaries of
>>>affirmative action in university admissions.
>>>
>>>What concerned the two professors, they said, was that in the high-stakes
>>>world of admissions to the most selective colleges - and with it, entry
>>>into
>>>the country's inner circles of power, wealth and influence -
>>>African-American students whose families have been in America for
>>>generations were being left behind.
>>>
>>>"I just want people to be honest enough to talk about it," Professor
>>>Gates,
>>>the Yale-educated son of a West Virginia paper-mill worker, said
>>>recently,
>>>reiterating the questions he has been raising since the black alumni
>>>weekend
>>>last fall. "What are the implications of this?"
>>>
>>>Both Professor Gates and Professor Guinier emphasize that this is not
>>>about
>>>excluding immigrants, whom sociologists describe as a highly motivated,
>>>self-selected group. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the United States
>>>population, are still underrepresented at Harvard and other selective
>>>colleges, they said.
>>>
>>>The conversation that bubbled up that weekend has continued across campus
>>>here and beyond as these professors and others publicly raise painful and
>>>complicated questions about race and class and how they play out in elite
>>>university admissions, issues that some educators and black admissions
>>>officers have privately talked about for some time.
>>>
>>>There is no consensus on the answers, and since most institutions say
>>>they
>>>do not look into the origins of their black students, the absence of hard
>>>data makes the discussion even more difficult.
>>>
>>>Some educators, including the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers,
>>>declined to comment on the issue; others are divided.
>>>
>>>The president of Amherst College, Anthony W. Marx, says that colleges
>>>should
>>>care about the ethnicity of black students because in overlooking those
>>>with
>>>predominantly American roots, colleges are missing an "opportunity to
>>>correct a past injustice" and depriving their campuses "of voices that
>>>are
>>>particular to being African-American, with all the historical
>>>disadvantages
>>>that that entails."
>>>
>>>But others say there is no reason to take the ancestry of black students
>>>into account.
>>>
>>>"I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher
>>>education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University,
>>>who
>>>as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of
>>>affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices. It
>>>matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that
>>>differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action."
>>>
>>>Professors Gates and Guinier cite various sources for their figures about
>>>Harvard's black students, including conversations with administrators and
>>>students, a recent Harvard undergraduate honors thesis based on extensive
>>>student interviews, and the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," which
>>>surveyed
>>>70 percent of the black undergraduates and was published last year by the
>>>Harvard Black Students Association.
>>>
>>>Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania
>>>who
>>>have been studying the achievement of minority students at 28 selective
>>>colleges and universities (including theirs, as well as Yale, Columbia,
>>>Duke
>>>and the University of California at Berkeley), found that 41 percent of
>>>the
>>>black students identified themselves as immigrants, as children of
>>>immigrants or as mixed race.
>>>
>>>Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton sociology professor who was one of the
>>>researchers, said the black students from immigrant families and the
>>>mixed-race students represented a larger proportion of the black students
>>>than that in the black population in the United States generally. Andrew
>>>A.
>>>Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College, says that among 18- to
>>>25-year-old blacks nationwide, about 9 percent describe themselves as of
>>>African or West Indian ancestry. Like the Gates and Guinier numbers,
>>>these
>>>tallies do not include foreign students.
>>>
>>>In the 40 or so years since affirmative action began in higher education,
>>>the focus has been on increasing the numbers of black students at
>>>selective
>>>colleges, not on their family background. Professor Massey said that the
>>>admissions officials he talked to at these colleges seemed surprised by
>>>the
>>>findings about the black students. "They really didn't have a good idea
>>>of
>>>what they're getting," he said.
>>>
>>>But few black students are surprised. Sheila Adams, a Harvard senior, was
>>>born in the South Bronx to a school security officer and a subway token
>>>seller, and her family has been in this country for generations. Ms.
>>>Adams
>>>said there were so few black students like her at Harvard that they had
>>>taken to referring to themselves as "the descendants."
>>>
>>>The subject, however, remains taboo among some college administrators.
>>>Anthony Carnevale, a former vice president at the Educational Testing
>>>Service, which develops SAT tests, said colleges were happy to the take
>>>high-performing black students from immigrant families.
>>>
>>>"They've found an easy way out," Mr. Carnevale said. "The truth is, the
>>>higher-education community is no longer connected to the civil rights
>>>movement. These immigrants represent Horatio Alger, not Brown v. Board of
>>>Education and America's race history."
>>>
>>>Almost from its inception, following the civil rights struggles of the
>>>1960's, affirmative action has been attacked and redefined. In its 1978
>>>Bakke decision, the Supreme Court shifted the rationale away from issues
>>>of
>>>social justice to the educational value of diversity.
>>>
>>>One black admissions official at a highly selective college said the
>>>reluctance of college officials to discuss these issues has helped
>>>obscure
>>>the scarcity of black students whose families have been in this country
>>>for
>>>generations.
>>>
>>>"If somebody does not start paying attention to those who are not able to
>>>make it in, they're going to start drifting farther and farther behind,"
>>>said the official, who declined to be identified because the subject is
>>>so
>>>charged. "You've got to say that the long-term blacks were either dealt a
>>>crooked hand, or something is innately wrong with them. And I simply
>>>won't
>>>accept that there is something wrong with them."
>>>
>>>Mary C. Waters, the chairman of the sociology department at Harvard, who
>>>has
>>>studied West Indian immigrants, says they are initially more successful
>>>than
>>>many African-Americans for a number of reasons. Since they come from
>>>majority-black countries, they are less psychologically handicapped by
>>>the
>>>stigma of race. In addition, many arrive with higher levels of education
>>>and
>>>professional experience. And at first, they encounter less
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>"You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of
>>>affirmative
>>>action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at
>>>Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500
>>>years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing
>>>well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans
>>>from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing
>>>well,
>>>either."
>>>
>>>Even among black scholars there is disagreement on whether a discussion
>>>about the origins of black students is helpful. Orlando Patterson, a
>>>Harvard
>>>sociologist and West Indian native, said he wished others would "let
>>>sleeping dogs lie."
>>>
>>>"The doors are wide open - as wide open as they ever will be - for
>>>native-born black middle-class kids to enter elite colleges," he wrote in
>>>an
>>>e-mail message.
>>>
>>>There is also wide disagreement about what, if anything, should be done
>>>about the underrepresentation of African-American students whose families
>>>have been here for generations. Even Professor Gates, who can trace his
>>>ancestry back to slaves, and Professor Guinier, whose mother is white and
>>>whose father immigrated from Jamaica, emphasize different ideas.
>>>
>>>"This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black
>>>indigenous
>>>middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study
>>>group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so
>>>we
>>>can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American
>>>community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense
>>>of
>>>purpose and values which produced our generation."
>>>
>>>In Professor Guinier's view, there are plenty of other blacks who could
>>>also
>>>succeed at elite colleges, but the institutions are not doing enough to
>>>find
>>>them. She said they were overly reliant on measures like SAT scores,
>>>which
>>>correlate strongly with family wealth and parental education.
>>>
>>>"Colleges and universities are defaulting on their obligation to train
>>>and
>>>educate a representative group of future leaders," said Professor
>>>Guinier, a
>>>Harvard graduate herself who has been studying college admissions
>>>practices
>>>for more than a decade. "And they are excluding poor and working-class
>>>whites, not just descendants of slaves."
>>>
>>>Harvard admissions officials say that they, too, are concerned about
>>>attracting more lower-income students of all races. They plan to spend an
>>>additional $300,000 to $375,000 a year to recruit more low-income
>>>students
>>>and provide more financial aid to these students.
>>>
>>>"This increases the chances that we will be able to reach into the
>>>communities that have not been reached," said William R. Fitzsimmons,
>>>dean
>>>of admissions and financial aid.
>>>
>>>While Harvard officials ignore the ethnic distinctions among their black
>>>students, Harvard's black undergraduates are developing a body of
>>>literature
>>>in the form of student research papers.
>>>
>>>Aisha Haynie, the undergraduate whose senior thesis Professor Guinier
>>>cited,
>>>said her research was prompted by the reaction from her black classmates
>>>when she told them that she was not from the West Indies or Africa, but
>>>from
>>>the Carolinas. "They would say, 'No, where are you really from?' " said
>>>Ms.
>>>Haynie, 26, who earned a master's degree in public policy at Princeton
>>>and
>>>is now in medical school.
>>>
>>>Marques J. Redd, a 20-year-old from Macon, Ga., who graduated in June and
>>>was one of the editors of Harvard's black student guide, said that
>>>Harvard
>>>officials had discouraged them from collecting the data on who the black
>>>students were.
>>>
>>>"But we thought it was one aspect of the black experience at Harvard that
>>>should be documented," he said. "The knowledge had power. It was
>>>something
>>>that needed to be out in the open instead of something that people
>>>whispered
>>>about."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/education/24AFFI.final.html?ei=5007&en=92df04e0957d73d3&ex=1403409600&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all
>>>
>>
>
>



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K*@yahoo.com
2005-03-30 06:57:09 EST
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:09:40 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:


>Speaking of which, do YOU consider yourself an African-American?
>Or a Haitian-American? Or a Caribbean-American? Or
>Carib-Afro-American? Or just plain old black man?

I have always been a black man. Qualifiers are nothing but
misguided diversions to further divide us. Satisfied?

K.

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