Basic Income has long been supported by economists and activists as an antidote to poverty.
As I myself have promoted the idea in the past, I am open minded to it, however in light of my current better understanding of Ricardian/Georgist economic theories regarding Rent, I have become a bit sceptical about it.
What would prevent Income derived from a Basic Income (or Guaranteed Annual Income, Negative Income Tax) distributive mechanism from being absorbed by Rental increases?
Increased competition for locations in the community, fueled by the Basic Income, would drive the Rents up until the actual share of consumptive goods the Basic Income recipients could afford fell back to their previous level.
It seems plausible to me that rather than allowing the poor to consume more of the product of the economy, as intended, this mechanism could end up merely transferring that claim on consumption to the Landlords.
Assuming that this Basic Income was funded by way of Income and Consumption Taxation, wouldn't that amount to yet another transfer of wealth from the workers to landowners by way of the State?
Nu-monet V7.0
2005-05-19 13:56:05 EST
Quirk wrote: > > Basic Income has long been supported by economists > and activists as an antidote to poverty.
It's no longer funny when somebody has a hairbrained scheme in economics that they think everybody should do *just* because it sounds good to them.
It's like, well, people have been scraping and dying for one crust of bread to live on for one day for like 5000 years, and yet, nobody ever thought of my brilliant idea how we can all be fabulously wealthy!
You idiots. These issues have been life-or-death to billions of people for thousands of years. Has it ever occurred to you that someone else might have thought of it first, and it was a dumb idea then, and it's a dumb idea now, and among ideas it has been gang-raped and beaten by entire biker gangs full of better ideas in the perpetual Darwinism of ideas that happens when damn near every single person on the planet has to think about how to live OR DIE?
In a way it is like dumbass neo-Nazis who think Hitler is cool because he had cool uniforms, while totally unthinking about WWII and all that "stuff". And they, too, get all pissy if you want to tell them that they are full of shit and should be horsewhipped.
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R*@telus.net
2005-05-19 14:24:55 EST
On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:56:05 -0700, "nu-monet v7.0" <*g@succeeds.com> wrote:
>Quirk wrote: >> >> Basic Income has long been supported by economists >> and activists as an antidote to poverty. > >It's no longer funny when somebody has a hairbrained >scheme in economics that they think everybody should >do *just* because it sounds good to them.
That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh.
>It's like, well, people have been scraping and dying >for one crust of bread to live on for one day for like >5000 years, and yet, nobody ever thought of my brilliant >idea how we can all be fabulously wealthy!
OK. People had been trying for thousands of years to transmute elements, but before Einstein, nobody ever thought of his brilliant idea of how to do it. So let's hear your brilliant idea.
>You idiots. These issues have been life-or-death to >billions of people for thousands of years. Has it ever >occurred to you that someone else might have thought of >it first, and it was a dumb idea then, and it's a dumb >idea now, and among ideas it has been gang-raped and >beaten by entire biker gangs full of better ideas in >the perpetual Darwinism of ideas that happens when damn >near every single person on the planet has to think >about how to live OR DIE?
Except it wasn't, isn't, and hasn't.
>In a way it is like dumbass neo-Nazis who think Hitler >is cool because he had cool uniforms, while totally >unthinking about WWII and all that "stuff". And they, >too, get all pissy if you want to tell them that they >are full of shit and should be horsewhipped.
<yawn>
-- Roy L
Nu-monet V7.0
2005-05-19 14:39:31 EST
r*s@telus.net wrote: > > That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh.
As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are still convinced that Marxism can work. Just because you are a nobel laureate does not mean shit, other than your buds voted you a prize. Especially in economics.
> OK. People had been trying for thousands of years > to transmute elements, but before Einstein, nobody > ever thought of his brilliant idea of how to do it. > So let's hear your brilliant idea.
First of all, a *few* people tried to transmute elements. We are talking about the livelihood of *everyone*, every man, woman and child. Many of whom were extraordinarily intelligent, and many who were dumbasses, but greedy.
Second of all, don't even *think* that you come anywhere near Einstein in your dumbass ideas.
> Except it wasn't, isn't, and hasn't.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it a new label and it's completely different, right? Nonsense. Same old shit. When man 'A' takes away from man 'B' to give to man 'C', then man 'A' is a Son of a Bitch. Old rule.
> <yawn>
Alright, be like the dumbass in Florida who wanted his name changed to "Hi Hitler" because that's what he thought everybody was yelling at Hitler.
Damn. Dumbshits with liberal arts bachelor's degrees or less think they know shit. No, they don't.
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Dan Clore
2005-05-19 15:01:52 EST
nu-monet v7.0 wrote: > royls@telus.net wrote: > >>That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh. > > As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are > still convinced that Marxism can work.
So now Milton Friedman thinks that Marxism can work?
-- Dan Clore
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Michael A. Clem
2005-05-19 15:03:40 EST
Quirk wrote:
> What would prevent Income derived from a Basic Income (or Guaranteed > Annual Income, Negative Income Tax) distributive mechanism from being > absorbed by Rental increases? > > Increased competition for locations in the community, fueled by the > Basic Income, would drive the Rents up until the actual share of > consumptive goods the Basic Income recipients could afford fell back to > their previous level. >
What would probably happen is that governments would pass laws restricting what rents could be charged (rent control), which would naturally lead to various unintended consequences and not really solve the problem, either. But they'd pat themselves on the back for "helping" the poor, and blame the "greedy" landowners for the problems.
Ouroboros Rex
2005-05-19 15:19:54 EST
"nu-monet v7.0" <nothing@succeeds.com> wrote in message news:428CDD63.2A79@succeeds.com... > royls@telus.net wrote: >> >> That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh. > > As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are > still convinced that Marxism can work. Just because > you are a nobel laureate does not mean shit, other > than your buds voted you a prize. Especially in > economics. > >> OK. People had been trying for thousands of years >> to transmute elements, but before Einstein, nobody >> ever thought of his brilliant idea of how to do it. >> So let's hear your brilliant idea. > > First of all, a *few* people tried to transmute elements. > We are talking about the livelihood of *everyone*, every > man, woman and child. Many of whom were extraordinarily > intelligent, and many who were dumbasses, but greedy. > > Second of all, don't even *think* that you come anywhere > near Einstein in your dumbass ideas. > >> Except it wasn't, isn't, and hasn't. > > Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it a new label and it's completely > different, right? Nonsense. Same old shit. When man 'A' > takes away from man 'B' to give to man 'C', then man 'A' > is a Son of a Bitch. Old rule. > >> <yawn> > > Alright, be like the dumbass in Florida who wanted his > name changed to "Hi Hitler" because that's what he thought > everybody was yelling at Hitler. > > Damn. Dumbshits with liberal arts bachelor's degrees or > less think they know shit. No, they don't.
Did you have an actual point about the CONTENT you wanted to make?
Nu-monet V7.0
2005-05-19 15:23:04 EST
Dan Clore wrote: > > nu-monet v7.0 wrote: > > royls@telus.net wrote: > > > >>That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh. > > > > As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are > > still convinced that Marxism can work. > > So now Milton Friedman thinks that Marxism can work? >
So you think all economists are Milton Friedman?
Well, using that logic, Milton Friedman is an economist, therefore all economists are Milton Friedman. Fortunately for us all, there are some Milton Friedmans who believe far more realistic scenarios of economics than what the few screwball Milton Friedmans might think.
Heck, many Milton Friedmans embrace the flat tax, many are laissez-faire Milton Friedmans, some are even pro-monopolist Milton Friedmans. And many of them, if not all, are nobel laureate Milton Friedmans.
The important thing to remember is the axiom, that "since economics is so important to every single person on the Earth, and has been so ever since there was organized production and consumption, might it just be possible, in my wildest imagination, to accept the notion that if it currently doesn't exist as an economic system then there might be a REASON that it doesn't exist, other than the fact that I am the most brilliant economist who ever lived, even though I really don't know jack shit about economics compared to individuals who have been studying it for 50 years?"
As far as nobel laureates are concerned, Linus Pauling, who won a prize for his brilliance in biochemistry, also believed that if you consumed enormous amounts of vitamin C, you would live to an extremely old age with few health complaints.
He was not correct in his assumption, that being that if you are brilliant in one thing, you are brilliant in all things. He did prove that you can still be an idiot in many ways, even if you have been studying something for 50 years.
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Robert Vienneau
2005-05-19 15:38:17 EST
In article <428CE798.5280@succeeds.com>, like.excess@sex.org wrote:
> > >>That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh.
The "it" is "Basic Income (or Guaranteed Annual Income, Negative Income Tax)".
> > > As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are > > > still convinced that Marxism can work.
> > So now Milton Friedman thinks that Marxism can work?
> So you think all economists are Milton Friedman?
No. Dan Clore is telling you nicely that Milton Friedman is a "Nobel" laureate in economics who supports Quirk's "Basic Income" idea. Since that is so, you are stupidly implying that "Milton Friedman thinks that Marxism can work".
> [ Pointless stupidity - deleted. ]
-- Mostly economics: <http://www.dreamscape.com/rvien/#PublicationsForFun> r c v s a Whether strength of body or of mind, or wisdom, or i m p virtue, are found in proportion to the power or wealth e a e of a man is a question fit perhaps to be discussed by n e . slaves in the hearing of their masters, but highly @ r c m unbecoming to reasonable and free men in search of d o the truth. -- Rousseau
>Dan Clore wrote: >> >> nu-monet v7.0 wrote: >> > royls@telus.net wrote: >> > >> >>That's not why Nobel laureates in economics support it. Duh. >> > >> > As in "a few". A few dumbasses like those who are >> > still convinced that Marxism can work. >> >> So now Milton Friedman thinks that Marxism can work? >> > >So you think all economists are Milton Friedman?