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Eki
2006-03-26 08:05:02 EST

Where could I find some comments on the last suutra
of ASTaadhyaayii (a a [iti])?

Neeraj Mathur
2006-03-26 09:46:31 EST

"eki" <eki@malefon.fi.invalid> wrote in message
news:r64d22holb4f2mevhkm60dm3qguvmcck1k@4ax.com...
>
> Where could I find some comments on the last suutra
> of ASTaadhyaayii (a a [iti])?

Presumably you've checked the major commentaries?

My main Sanskrit teacher here at Oxford, James Benson, is something of an
expert in Panini; I can try to find out from him where to point you, but I
won't see him for a while.

In the meantime, I remember reading that the point of this sutra is
phonological: he is saying that 'a' is 'a' - that is, the phoneme /a/ that
he has been treating as simply the shortened version of the long /a:/ is to
be recognized as none other than the open-mid back-central sound we are all
familiar with (represented in ASCII as [V] usually). In other words, he's
saying that the phonemes /a/ and /a:/ differ in quality, not just length.

Neeraj Mathur



Eddie Hadley
2006-03-26 12:28:18 EST

How is your French?

This is a simple copy and paste, from the download from:
http://www.taralabalu.org/panini

You will need to register, but its free.




La voyelle a (qui pour les op\ufffdrations de grammaire \ufffdtait trait\ufffde en voyelle
ouverte, est dans l'usage r\ufffdel) un a (ferm\ufffd).

Le caract\ufffdre "ouvert" \ufffdtait d\ufffd au souci de maintenir l'homophonie (selon
1.1,9) entre a et ?, et de permettre les op\ufffdrations fond\ufffdes l\ufffd-dessus.
Maintenant que l'ouvrage est fini, que le a soit ferm\ufffd.



I don't understand French - I await the English . . .


Eddie


"eki" <eki@malefon.fi.invalid> wrote in message
news:r64d22holb4f2mevhkm60dm3qguvmcck1k@4ax.com...
>
> Where could I find some comments on the last suutra
> of ASTaadhyaayii (a a [iti])?



Nikolaj
2006-03-27 02:44:38 EST
eki wrote:
> Where could I find some comments on the last suutra
> of ASTaadhyaayii (a a [iti])?

I will type in the comments of the kAzikavRtti and siddhAnta kaumudI and
post them tomorow.

Eki
2006-03-27 15:53:59 EST
Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:44:38 +0200, Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar@bla.si> a
écrit:

>eki wrote:
>> Where could I find some comments on the last suutra
>> of ASTaadhyaayii (a a [iti])?
>
>I will type in the comments of the kAzikavRtti and siddhAnta kaumudI and
>post them tomorow.

Thanks!

Nikolaj
2006-03-28 02:58:27 EST
(I am not 100% sure about the transliteration of the original Sanskrit
in certain syllables of the comments and in siddhAnta they are sometimes
completely unreadable)


*kAzikavRtti* VIII.IV.68

a a iti || 68 || padAni || a, a, iti ||

vRttiH || ekonna vivRto 'paraH saMvRtastanna vivRtasya saMvRtaH
krithate | akAro vivRtaH saMvRto bhavati ||

68. The 'a' which was considered to be open (vivRta) in all the
preceding operations of this Grammar, is now made contracted (saMvRta) ||


The first 'a' is here 'vivRta' or open; the second is 'saMvRta' or
contracted. The open 'a' is now changed to contracted 'a'. "In actual
use the organ in the enunciation of the short 'a' is /contracted/; but
it is considered to be /open/ oply, as in the case of the other vowels,
when the vowel 'a' is in the state of taking part in some operation of
Grammar. The reason for this is, that if the short 'a' were held to
differ from the long 'A' in this respect, the /homogeneousness/
mentioned in I.I.9 (tulyAsyaprayatnaM savarNam | tulya-Asya-prayatnam,
savarNam), would not be found to exist between them and the operation of
the rules depending upon that homogeneousness would be debarred. In
order to restore the short 'a' to its natural rights thus infringed
throughout the aSTAdhyAyI, pANini with oracular brevity in his closing
aphorism gives the injunction 'a a'; which is interpreted to signify:
"Let short 'a' be held to have its organ of utterance contracted, now
that we have reached the end of the work in which it was necessary to
regard it as being otherwise". (Dr. Ballantyne.)

Thus 'vRkSaH, plakSaH' (*). In this Grammar, the 'a' is regarded open or
'vivRta', when operations are performed with it: but in actual
pronunciation it is contracted. The long 'A' and the pluta 'A3' are not
meant to be included here in the open short 'a' (**); therefore those
two are not contracted by this rule. Only the /short/ 'a' consisiting of
/one/ mAtra with /its/ various modifications is to be taken here. In
other words the /six/ short 'a' are only taken here, namely 'a_u, a|,
a_, ~a_u, ~a_, ~a|'. For these six short open 'a's, there are
substituted six contracted corresponding 'a's. See I.I.9.

('~' :candrabindu; '_u' :udAtta; '|', '_' :anudAtta and svarita)

---
My comments:

(*) What could be meant by that? The rule is a noun stem + ending, in
this case 'vRkSa + s' or 'plakSa + s'. Does this adding of the ending
depend somehow on the homogeneousness of 'a'? Of maybe the s-sandhi -
the change of final 's' into 'H'?

(**) Normally a single letter used in a grammatical operation signifies
its set of homogeneous letters. For simple vowels this means 18 letters
(or more in the case of 'R' and 'lR' which are homogeneous by another
rule in pANini): 3 lengths (i, I, i3) * 3 accents (udatta, anudatta,
svarita) * nasalizations (nasalized, nonnasalized). Thus 'a' = {a, ...,
A, ..., A3, ...}; i = {i, ..., I, ..., I3, ...} etc...

Also normally the single letter, when used in the grammar is marked with
the 't' marker, like in the first sUtra 'vRddhirAdaic | vRddhis, At,
aic', where 'At' stands for the single letter 'A' only (and its
homogeneous modifications - accents, nasalization).

I have no idea why in this rule only short 'a's are meant and not the
whole set of homogeneous letters.

Probably for the correct interpretation of this rule, the following
paribhASA must be used 'vyAkhyAnato vizeSapratipattirnahi
sandehAdalakSaNam' "The precise meaning of an ambiguous term is
ascertained from interpretation, for a rule, even though it conain an
ambiguous term, must never the less teach something definite." (from
siddhAnta kaumudI) I wonder if this is pANini's rule or is from some
comment, like mahAbhASya?

Ambiguous terms in pANini's grammar are the prathyAhAras 'hal' (can mean
either only 'h' or all consonants), 'aN' ({a, i, u} or {a, i, u, R, lR,
e, o, ai, au, h, y, v, r, l}), similarly pratyAhAras 'iN' and 'uN'. When
they appear in a rule a correct interpretation of the grammatical term
must be used, which give desired results.

Maybe 'a' here could be taken as ambiguous and then interpreted so that
it gives desired result, namely as standing for the short 'a's only?

===============================================
*siddhAnta kaumudI* rule 11

11 a a iti | 8 | 4 | 68 |

vivRtamanUdya saMvRto 'nenavidhIyate | asya cASTAdhyAyIm saMpUrNaM
pratyasiddhatvAcchAstadda???A vivRta??? styeva | tathA ca sutram ||

11. The 'a' which was considered to be open (vivRta) in all the
preceding operations of this Grammar, is now made contracted (saMvRta) ||


(the English translation of the comment start by repeating the first
paragraph of the translation of the kAzikAvRtti)

The present sUtra occurs in the second division of aSTAdhyAyI, /i.e./
the last three padas. The whole aSTAdhyAyI has 32 padas; they are
divided into two parts - the first 29 padas forming one group, the last
three, the second group. For the purposes of the application of a rule
in the first set (7 1/4 adhyAya) the rules in the second set are
considered as non-exsistent. Therefore though the 'a' is made samvRta by
this rule, it does not interfere with the 'a' being considered as vivRta
throughout the rest of the Grammar. The sUtra which declares the rules
in the last 3 padas (tripAdi) as non-existent for the purposes of the
rules in the 29 padas (7 1/4 adhyAya) is the following:



12 pUrvatrAsiddham | 8 | 2 | 1 ||

12. Whatever will be taught hereafter, up to the end of the work, is
considered as not taken effect, in relation to the application of a
preceding rule.

This is an adhikAra sUtra. Therefor the tripAdi rules are asiddha with
regard to the 7 1/4 adhyAyi rules. Even in the tripAdi, a previous rule
is asiddha with regard to the subsequent.

Thus the letter 'a' is samvRtta really, though treated as vivRta.

Eki
2006-03-31 03:53:08 EST
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:58:27 +0200, Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar@bla.si> a
écrit:

>(I am not 100% sure about the transliteration of the original Sanskrit
>in certain syllables of the comments and in siddhAnta they are sometimes
>completely unreadable)
>
>
>*kAzikavRtti* VIII.IV.68
>
>a a iti || 68 || padAni || a, a, iti ||
>
>vRttiH || ekonna vivRto 'paraH saMvRtastanna vivRtasya saMvRtaH
>krithate | akAro vivRtaH saMvRto bhavati ||
>
>68. The 'a' which was considered to be open (vivRta) in all the
>preceding operations of this Grammar, is now made contracted (saMvRta) ||
>
>

Thanks. Very impressive. Can you hear that difference between 'a' and
'aa' whilst listening to, say, Giitaa?

Eki
2006-03-31 14:26:22 EST
Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:53:08 +0300, eki <eki@malefon.fi.invalid> a
écrit:

> Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:58:27 +0200, Nikolaj <nikolaj.korbar@bla.si> a
>écrit:
>
>>(I am not 100% sure about the transliteration of the original Sanskrit
>>in certain syllables of the comments and in siddhAnta they are sometimes
>>completely unreadable)
>>
>>
>>*kAzikavRtti* VIII.IV.68
>>
>>a a iti || 68 || padAni || a, a, iti ||
>>
>>vRttiH || ekonna vivRto 'paraH saMvRtastanna vivRtasya saMvRtaH
>>krithate | akAro vivRtaH saMvRto bhavati ||
>>
>>68. The 'a' which was considered to be open (vivRta) in all the
>>preceding operations of this Grammar, is now made contracted (saMvRta) ||
>>
>>
>
>Thanks. Very impressive. Can you hear that difference between 'a' and
>'aa' whilst listening to, say, Giitaa?

I meant, of course, the *qualitative* difference...

Neeraj Mathur
2006-03-31 15:46:59 EST

"eki" <eki@malefon.fi.invalid> wrote in message
news:kh0r22lggd8ch68rng1uuse7hb3ttddphc@4ax.com...
> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:53:08 +0300, eki <eki@malefon.fi.invalid> a
> \ufffdcrit:
>>Thanks. Very impressive. Can you hear that difference between 'a' and
>>'aa' whilst listening to, say, Giitaa?
>
> I meant, of course, the *qualitative* difference...

Yes, of course. You can hear it in every (proper) Sanskrit pronunciation.

This same qualitative difference can be found in most of the modern North
Indian languages (except Bengali), including Hindi. Ask an Indian to say
'zriimad bhaagavad giitaa' and you will clearly hear the difference.

Basically, the quality of 'a' is more or less the same as that of the vowels
(particularly the first) in English 'above' or the vowel of English 'but'.
The long aa has the sound of the first vowel of English 'father'.

Neeraj Mathur



Nikolaj
2006-04-05 03:22:05 EST
eki wrote:

> Thanks. Very impressive. Can you hear that difference between 'a' and
> 'aa' whilst listening to, say, Giitaa?

Here is the complete text of the kAzika commentary. Obviously in the
Vasu's English translation there is only the beginning of the text in
Sanskrit, but the whole is translated. The text below is from computer
program gaNakASTAdhyAyI (it contains also laghu kaumudI, but not
siddhAnta, AFAIK).
----------------------------------
*sUtra* 8.4.068

a a

*pada-pATha*

a, a

*kAzika*

eko'atra vivRtaH, aparaH saMvRtaH | tatra vivRtasya saMvRtaH kriyate |
akAro vivRtaH saMvRto bhavati | vRkSaH | plakSaH | iha zAstre
kAryArthamakAro vivRtaHpratijJAtaH, tasya tathAbhUtasya eva prayogo mA
bhUt itisaMvRtapratyApattir iyaM kriyate | dItghaplutayoz ca
anenavivRtena akArena grahaNaM neSyate | tena tayoH saMvRtona bhavati |
saMvutena ca sarvaguNasya mAtrikasya grahaNamiSyate | tena sarvaguNaH
pratyApadyate | iSTyupasaNkhyAnavatI zuddhagaNAvivRtagUDhasUtrArtha |
vyutpannarUpasiddhir vRttir iyaM kAzikA nAma |

*laghu kaumudI*

iti vivRtamanUdya saMvRto' nena vidhIyate |
-----------------------------------

I would say I do hear the difference in my copy of gItA recitation. I am
not 100% sure though, probably not able to tell for every instance of an
'a', if it is short or long. When I would/will understand the text, then
I would probably say that I know for sure which is which. Like in
Slovene I always know if an 'a' is short and which long, even though we
don't at all mark the difference in writing - for instance 'mati
(mother)' is 'mAti' actually.

The problem is only that in Slovene all long 'a's are always stressed,
while in Sanskrit there can be a word or more words connected with
sandhi, which also generates a long vowel, that have 4 or more
consecutive long vowels, of which only one is stressed. How to pronounce
a non-stressed long vowel? Hm...
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