Sanskrit Discussion: Pronounciation

Pronounciation
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Joachim Pense
2006-12-18 15:43:09 EST
In this page
<http://sanskrit.farfromreal.com/index.php?x=hear_prayer>, I hear
chanted prayers. I wish to know if they are chanted by a westerner or
by an Indian?

Two aspects of pronounciation that strike me, compared to e.g. the
chanting here <http://www.vedah.com/org2/audio_vis/overview.asp> are

- r retroflex (English/American style) rather than sharply trilled
- visarga pronounced like in German: ich-laut after front vowels, like
an ach-laut after back vowels. Not, like in the other example a very
soft, almost inaudible afterbreath.
- the voiced aspirated stops are pronounced as two sounds: bh is a b,
followed by a h.

In neither example I hear the syllabic r pronounced as a ri, as they
say is modern usage among pandits.

The question I am still not so sure about is what pronounciation I
should adopt for myself. (Category: novice language learner)

Joachim

Eddie Hadley
2006-12-18 19:09:21 EST
Joachim,


Are you on broadband?


Google for 'Sanskrit Broadcast' or such like

. . .

Home-StudyDeutsche Welle is the only international broadcasting station
outside India to broadcast in Sanskrit. The programme reports on
developments and research in ...
imp.lss.wisc.edu/~gbuhnema/homes.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

. . .

News in SanskritSanskrit News Broadcast (about 5 minutes each) from All
India Radio at http://www.allindiaradio.org/. (Delhi MW650KZ at 0655hrs and
1810 hrs. daily). ...
sanskritdocuments.org/sanskritnews.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

. . .

Eddie




2006-12-18 19:40:00 EST

Joachim Pense wrote:
> In this page
> <http://sanskrit.farfromreal.com/index.php?x=hear_prayer>, I hear
> chanted prayers. I wish to know if they are chanted by a westerner or
> by an Indian?

For some reason, my speakers don't turn on.

> Two aspects of pronounciation that strike me, compared to e.g. the
> chanting here <http://www.vedah.com/org2/audio_vis/overview.asp> are
>
> - r retroflex (English/American style) rather than sharply trilled
> - visarga pronounced like in German: ich-laut after front vowels, like
> an ach-laut after back vowels. Not, like in the other example a very
> soft, almost inaudible afterbreath.

Must be a German. No Indian uses ich-laut for a visarga. Always close
to ach-laut in Sweizerdeutch (not Hochdeutsch) ach-laut like in <ach>
and <ich>, typically or often followed by a schwa.

> - the voiced aspirated stops are pronounced as two sounds: bh is a b,
> followed by a h.

Not Pandit-like at all.

> In neither example I hear the syllabic r pronounced as a ri, as they
> say is modern usage among pandits.
> The question I am still not so sure about is what pronounciation I
> should adopt for myself. (Category: novice language learner)

[r.i] is a pronunciation they pride themselves on not using. My
pronunciation is [r.YS], using the vowel in [hYpS] (h�bsch), in an
<rS> context and [r.I], using the vowel in [zIts] (Sitz), in all other
contexts.


Joachim Pense
2006-12-19 13:12:45 EST
Am 18 Dec 2006 16:40:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:

>> The question I am still not so sure about is what pronounciation I
>> should adopt for myself. (Category: novice language learner)
>
> [r.i] is a pronunciation they pride themselves on not using. My
> pronunciation is [r.YS], using the vowel in [hYpS] (hübsch), in an
> <rS> context and [r.I], using the vowel in [zIts] (Sitz), in all other
> contexts.

What is preferrable for r: retroflex or trilled? Are syllabic an
consonantical r different in this respect?

Joachim

2006-12-19 14:12:00 EST

Joachim Pense wrote:
> Am 18 Dec 2006 16:40:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:
>
> >> The question I am still not so sure about is what pronounciation I
> >> should adopt for myself. (Category: novice language learner)
> >
> > [r.i] is a pronunciation they pride themselves on not using. My
> > pronunciation is [r.YS], using the vowel in [hYpS] (hübsch), in an
> > <rS> context and [r.I], using the vowel in [zIts] (Sitz), in all other
> > contexts.
>
> What is preferrable for r: retroflex or trilled?

What I use is trilled, retroflexed and consonantal like in Turkish
initial and medial contexts. Search for Turkish sound samples; I don't
know where to find Indian sound samples any better than the ones you've
got.

> Are syllabic an
> consonantical r different in this respect?

Yes, but you'd be better off not trying to produce a syllabic trill. I
haven't heard it in contexts where the tongue corona is needed for
articulating adjacent consonants. The last time I heard it, the word
was [kr.mitS:@] literally meaning "wormed" but implying worm-eaten,
equivalent in meaning to English moth-eaten. [kr.ImItS:@] would work
just as well; if you really want to work on a syllabic, practice that
with shorter and shorter [I]s till you can no longer discern an [I].

> Joachim


Joachim Pense
2006-12-19 14:30:22 EST
Am 19 Dec 2006 11:12:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:

> Joachim Pense wrote:
>> Am 18 Dec 2006 16:40:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:
>>
>>>> The question I am still not so sure about is what pronounciation I
>>>> should adopt for myself. (Category: novice language learner)
>>>
>>> [r.i] is a pronunciation they pride themselves on not using. My
>>> pronunciation is [r.YS], using the vowel in [hYpS] (hübsch), in an
>>> <rS> context and [r.I], using the vowel in [zIts] (Sitz), in all other
>>> contexts.
>>
>> What is preferrable for r: retroflex or trilled?
>
> What I use is trilled, retroflexed and consonantal like in Turkish
> initial and medial contexts. Search for Turkish sound samples; I don't
> know where to find Indian sound samples any better than the ones you've
> got.
>
>> Are syllabic an
>> consonantical r different in this respect?
>
> Yes, but you'd be better off not trying to produce a syllabic trill. I
> haven't heard it in contexts where the tongue corona is needed for
> articulating adjacent consonants. The last time I heard it, the word
> was [kr.mitS:@] literally meaning "wormed" but implying worm-eaten,
> equivalent in meaning to English moth-eaten. [kr.ImItS:@] would work
> just as well; if you really want to work on a syllabic, practice that
> with shorter and shorter [I]s till you can no longer discern an [I].
>

I don't have problems with syllabic r or l - I find it harder to
pronounce the version with the i. Of course, a trilled r isn't that
easy in conjunction with a retroflex consonant.

What is really difficult for me is the voiced aspirated consonants. In
German, voiced is closely coupled with non-aspirated, as is voiceless
and aspirated. Voiceless aspirates do work (although the aspiration
sometimes shows), but I just have no idea how to pronounce a voiced
aspirate consonant.

Joachim

2006-12-19 15:18:07 EST
Joachim Pense wrote:
> Am 19 Dec 2006 11:12:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:
>
> I don't have problems with syllabic r or l - I find it harder to
> pronounce the version with the i.

How do you pronounce Ricken? You might not use the same articulator
(tongue corona) as an Indian, so it won't sound like an Indian's
accent, but it might still be acceptable even with a uvular trill.

> Of course, a trilled r isn't that
> easy in conjunction with a retroflex consonant.

It is never in conjunction with a retroflex consonant in modern
Sanskritic speech; there's always an [I] or [Y] between it and a
retroflex consonant. Making it [i] or [u] is frowned upon; it would be
a merger with a different phoneme; eg., [r.Ig] and [r.ig] are
phonemically distinct.

> What is really difficult for me is the voiced aspirated consonants. In
> German, voiced is closely coupled with non-aspirated, as is voiceless
> and aspirated. Voiceless aspirates do work (although the aspiration
> sometimes shows), but I just have no idea how to pronounce a voiced
> aspirate consonant.

Have you tried to take a word with a voiceless aspirate and add voicing
to the aspirate? For example, try taking English pool [p<h>u:l] and try
making it sound like [b<h>u:l], ignoring the requisite for a dental
lateral in the latter.

> Joachim


Joachim Pense
2006-12-20 00:54:32 EST
Am 19 Dec 2006 12:18:07 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:

>
>> What is really difficult for me is the voiced aspirated consonants. In
>> German, voiced is closely coupled with non-aspirated, as is voiceless
>> and aspirated. Voiceless aspirates do work (although the aspiration
>> sometimes shows), but I just have no idea how to pronounce a voiced
>> aspirate consonant.
>
> Have you tried to take a word with a voiceless aspirate and add voicing
> to the aspirate? For example, try taking English pool [p<h>u:l] and try
> making it sound like [b<h>u:l], ignoring the requisite for a dental
> lateral in the latter.
>

Tried yes, succeeded no.

Joachim

Joachim Pense
2006-12-20 01:00:28 EST
Am 19 Dec 2006 12:18:07 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:

> Joachim Pense wrote:
>> Am 19 Dec 2006 11:12:00 -0800 schrieb ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com:
>>
>> I don't have problems with syllabic r or l - I find it harder to
>> pronounce the version with the i.
>
> How do you pronounce Ricken? You might not use the same articulator
> (tongue corona) as an Indian, so it won't sound like an Indian's
> accent, but it might still be acceptable even with a uvular trill.
>

Of course it is not difficult to pronounce a ri, but it is difficult
to pronounce a ri and make r the more prominent component. I could
pronounce grham, also griham with a consonantic r, but gr(i)ham with
the stress on the r doesn't seem so easy to me.

Joachim

Mb
2006-12-20 01:03:11 EST

ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
> What I use is trilled, retroflexed and consonantal like in Turkish
> initial and medial contexts. Search for Turkish sound samples; I don't
> know where to find Indian sound samples any better than the ones you've
> got.

Turkish retroflex? That's a little surprising. There is an approximant
r, of course, and even an almost non-rhotic r and a non-rhotic one, but
retroflex?

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